i could, but then i’d have to kill you.

ok I’ll figure it out myself

when i run command i need to get it’s out put i use popen but the problem popen is wait the out put to finish what if the output will never finish can i get out put in real time

why do you feel popen waits?

popen doesnt waits

hi, anybody knows where can i ask questions about Java Programming Language? ##java says I need to be identified!

not here.

go register yourself.

consider identifying.

how? Auris-: how?

see freenode help pages.

Auris-: thanks

mlockall(MCL_CURRENT|MCL_FUTURE); What does that function do?

hello

/* no memory-swapping for this programm */

Is there a way I can encode/decode bytes in base36?

yes.

How many bits would I be able to encode in base36?

I’ve written a little piece of test code http://pastebin.ca/699522 what is the reason that it only run once even if I have a while-true?

bkw, why don’t you put a printstatement after rt_task_sleep? and you can do stuff like printf(”foo\n”);

hmm, I’ve to findout what happens during the sleep and print the error. the second print never got printed

yep, it’s called basic debugging nothing wrong with your while-statement

1000000000 is a long time, did you wait long enough before deciding it wasn’t working?

How many bits can I encode in base36?

try a little arithmetic.

Are there any System.currentTimeMillis() similar function in C which I can use with printf?

log(36)/log(2)

time.h seem to have clock();

gettimeofday() is pretty close. Or GetTickCount() if you’re on Windows.

Mornin’ umm… Thanks - workin’ on the coffee

http://pastebin.ca/699536 that gives 0.0000 everytime. I would like the currentTime instead

PoppaVic are you still alive?

yah

nice to see

at least.. it feels like “alive”

where’s your book?

on it’s way from amazon.com?

ahh.

two books actually

probably just escaping gasses.

If I want to print current gettimeofday() using printf, what type should it be, %f (float)?

no.

what does gettimeofday produce?

(or yes, for all i care)

http://www.hpcx.ac.uk/support/documentation/UserGuide/HPCxuser/Porting_Codes.html#SECTION00072200000000000000 “The gettimeofday() function has a resolution of microseconds.” In JAVA I would say type long, but I don’t know in C

so, what does gettimeofday produce?

The time in micros?

are you mentally retarded? what is the return type of gettimeofday?

ac.uk, so probably.

well, it looking that way, but I hear that some English people can still manage to read simple sentences.

ahh, that’s just some site he’s referencing, not his own.

return value int, that should be 0

what does 0 mean?

no error?

well done. so, how the hell is it getting the time back to you?

why the cast?

I like that ac.uk site: Fortran/C/C++ all major languages

Which one?

either.

hmm, I tought it would return something similar to system.currenttimemillis that returns long millis

They are unnecessary?

stop guessing and read the goddamned documentation, you idiot!

by implication. analyze the expression.

what type is 1000000.0?

can’t you follow the example you provided a link to? it seems clear enough.

I did briefly think the introduction of 1000000.0 would automagically promote the other values to double, but wasn’t 100% confident about it, so I added the casts just in case.

reading gettimeofday’s documentation couldn’t hurt either.

ok

double

I have a timing design problem, how can i have multithreads from over different CPU cores use a common time ?

does your o/s provide a high precision time api?

yes, but it only works consistantly from a single CPU. what if the thread that wants the time, is running on a seperate CPU ?

so the cores are also spread over multiple cpus? anyway, the thread calls the system time function, of course.

the system’s time function documentation indicates it should only be called from a single thread.

really? damn, that sucks. what horrific system is that?

Windows.

i don’t think i believe that.

Which means i have no idea how a thread can use timing information, because you never know which thread your CPU is on, unless you specifically set it. and if you are specifically setting threads to a CPU, then your manually doing scheduling.

multiprocessor systems often have differences in high-resolution timing between cpus.

twkm, http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb173458.aspx points 1 to 5 in Recommednations paragraph.

the tsc sucks, avoid it.

i’ve been trying to use the QueryPerfacmemce…

use the pmtmr or hpet.

whats the point of a ‘Performance’ counter, if you have to wait for a thread to update it, a thread that is also locked to a specific CPU.

in theory the performance counters might use the pmtmr or hpet, but if they use the tsc (or worse) you are toast. anyway, perhaps you should do as it says, have one affinity locked thread do all the timing you need. err, timing computations.

hi

the tsc is only good because you can read it with one instruction

conversion to non-scalar type requested. I thought that should be possible? (so the error must be somewhere else?)…

aside from that it’s a liability if the structs are documented as being compatible then you can cast the pointers this is how you do OOP in C

normally you cast pointer values, not struct values.

Spark/twkm: Ok, will try that instead Thanks!

when using send()/recv(), is the sent data considered serialized ?

no.

then when is the transfered data considered serialized ? isn’t serialization a concept ?

when you do it.

for some class i’m taking i’m supposed to play with string format /buffer overflow examples, but i cant get it to work, i disabled va_randomization, using gcc 4.0.4/2.6.18, any stack security things that i missed?

can you clarify more if you may ?

if you care nothing for compatibility then having transmitted/received the object byte by byte could be considered serialization — but typically one expects the stream to be structured in some fashion. probably.

i see

any idea which ones twkm?

hi,when mmaping a file,does it involve copying the data to userspace or is it direct access to the kernel’s cache of that file?

direct access, more or less.

what do you mean by more or less? only in some situations?

depends on the system. at the least you can expect some moderation of your access to the kernel’s cache.

thanks. sorry for a linux specific question, why is sendfile then better than mmap+write?

it isn’t?

who said it was?

it is better than read and write because sendfile() dont copy stuff to userspace first

use splice

splice is for pipes,sendfile for sockets

so? it’s I/O..i think copying a few bytes between RAM is going to be aitlebit faster than sending over the wire, unless your RAM is from 1935

orbitz, i thought so,if it is worse,why create a extra syscall for it?

sendfiel is a syscall?

yep it can be a local socket for example

it might matter if you have enough of them occurring.

fbred, so with mmap+write there are no advantages as there is also no data copied?

thomas001, i think so, yes

i really wonder why they introduced the syscall then

sendfile is obviously not a very robus tool either

because it is quite common among unixen. write typically involves a copy, even if you managed to avoid one with mmap instead of read. sendfile avoids userspace entirely.

aio_write likewise.

ever used open(…,O_DIRECT) ?

on a socket? no. how portable is it?

I don’t think that it’s meaningful on a socket

doesn’t O_DIRECT tell the OS not to cache stuff (e.g. read/write immediately to disk)

not for a socket … for a file … a socket is going to imply a lot of copies no matter what

yes, so it tends to be rather slow.

then i guess it doesn’t apply here.

nah, aio_write on a socket will happily do zero copy.

to pass the user space memory to the driver, yes

assuming that it’s implemented fully.

but not if the socket is for a connection to another process

well, that’s true.

rexy_, stack-smashing protection is prolly turned on, you should also compile with -fno-stack-protector.

which does bypass kernel caching … so writing 40GB of data won’t flood all the cache

o_O heh ok

if it skips a step of making a copy of the data into kernel space before chopping it up into packets or whatever, then sure, that’s an advantage … but IMHO write/send should just do that, too

Skapare, O_DIRECT should be most usefull with aio_write as writes will take longer time?

nah — would require pinning and notification which is what aio_write does for you

I have little program called directwrite that copies its stdin to the named file/device by opening the latter with O_DIRECT so it bypasses cache

if i want to write program with linux web hosting sockets + any gui toolkit (maybe i want write irc client) i need use threads ?

I don’t believe it needs to require that

kestaz, no

current implementations may require it, but it could be done without

if you don’t want to copy it … how do you tell the program that it can reuse that space?

it would have copied it … just to the queeud packets … one step less queued if you want to even eliminate the queeud packets, then yes, it’s harder still

well, there’s your copy.

one copy instead of two e.g. minimum amount of copying w/o doing notification and stuff

doesn’t it already effectively do that?

I don’t really know … some descriptions I’ve read suggested a buffer copy being done first, so I wonder but apparently there is a finite amount of buffer copying allowed on a socket afterwhich write() blocks until the buffer comes down if a program does a whole bunch of individual write(,,1) calls to a TCP socket, and all those 1 byte payload packets get lost in transit, a resend can send them all together as one big packet up to the max packet size so either the data is stored as a large collected block, or the logic can recombine individual packets if writing was forced to create packets at write time, and no logic exists to recombine, then resends would mean a lot of individual packets again (and maybe lost again) what I would really like is a write() call (for files and storage devices) that does do copying, but only a finite amount before blocking (or giving an EAGAIN for nonblocking sockets) currently Linux tries to copy as many blocks as it can, kicking out non-dirty pages from RAM to accomplish it

why would you want that?

but what I usually need is only enough such data to be queued to keep the physical device busy … beyond that I’d rather queue the rest inside my process for one thing, those non-dirty pages may well be the program code itself, or libraries, or that of other programs on the system there being no advantage to my program to queue it in kernel space, and there being harm in doing such queueing in kernel space, I therefore want to avoid it I don’t need to queue 1GB of data to keep a device busy … maybe at most 1MB to 4MB yet if I have 100GB of data to be written, and 2GB of RAM, the kernel will end up with 1GB of my data in RAM by the time I have gotten to writing about 4GB of it but there is simply no advantage to having that 1GB there in RAM … in a great many specific cases (there are real cases where such an advantage is real … just not all cases) so what I’d like is an ioctl() that lets me set a specific buffering ceiling per socket

well, that would imply a lack of scan resistance in the cache algorithms.

I’d set it to about 64K to 256K … whatever the minimum that gets me solid I/O performance

a decent cache should not do what you’ve described above.

i wonder, for a sufficiently large write, how much data actually resides in RAM at any one time

Linux does this … a little less so in 2.6 than in 2.4 … but it still does in part I believe it is anticipating that the data might soon be read back in, if not by this process that wrote it, then by some process and for some kinds of data or programs, that anticipation (assumption) is actually valid

well, that’s why a decent cache has a notion of recent and frequent accesses.

it’s just that it’s not always the case … such as when I am populating a big disk I just formatted

which prevents a scan from wiping out the frequently used data

ideally, a decent algorithm would figure it out LInux doesn’t have it but even with a very good algorithm I see room for a process advising how its data will be used … such as telling the algorithm that whatever is written on this socket won’t need to be read back for a long time

well, that’s true.

and/or whatever is written on this other socket might be needed real soon

http://linux-mm.org/AdvancedPageReplacement i was reading about ARC not long ago, but it’s patented by IBM i think PostgreSQL implemented it but had to rip it out; but there are other similar ones

ARC isn’t as good as CAR.

if that is a reference to something proposed for a future Linux, it might be worth a read … if it is what is in current Linux, I don’t really care because current Linux does not have the optimal performance

hmm..

well, imho, anyhow

Una^: tried that but that function is not in ggc 4.0.4 4.03 even

yes i believe the linux people know the current implementations are lacking rather, the currently-used algorithm is

Finally had to fire up the heat *sigh* Gettin’ too damned chilly anymore, even if that warmfront is due.

How can I get a random unsigned 8-bit number?

/dev/random?

solemnwarning, rand() & 0xff

it’s not even worth our time to respond. Google.

Thanks Wait, won’t that make 255 almost the entire time?

well, seems downgrading to ubuntu warthy seemed to do the trick, heh, now i just gotta figure out what the difference is

quite being an idiot and lear your bitwise operators

what PoppaVic said.

… If rand() produces a random int then there’s a small chance of it being small Wait nvm

which is why you only care about the lower 8 bits.. r-tard

solemnwarning, read the binary operators chapter in your book.

I have

read it again.

then you’re just stupid, good day

hi cin

yo

Here, have an Ovaltine

thanks

Who was it I should talk to about getting an iso-9899.info account? I feel the need to write “best practice” pages.

defrost? …

huh? you mean the wiki?

Yep. Ah, I see there’s a list on the wiki.

twkm can help too.

Indeed

I swear we need to reorganize it all, though

ah, my old account still works

sounds good. who wants accounts?

Me, please

otoh, as-is would be fine if we could create one heirarchial TOC

Would be nice if it had site-wide history (”patch sets”) instead of just per-page, but that’s probably too complex for a wiki

well, if we could cluster all the sub-toc into one large toc-of-all, or even an “index”, it might be fine.

Why would (rand() & 0xFF) produce 103 every single time?

It wouldn’t.

It is

solemnwarning, try srand()

Unless you’re reseeding the PRNG with the same seed before each call, anyway

proper seed?

Oh wait rand() always has the same initial seed, right?

Better yet, forget TOCs - we could copy c2.com and have each page link to one or more category page; the TOCs are then autogenerated by using the “what links here” special

solemnwarning, if you dont know how to use a function, the first thing you should do is look up its docs and read.

c2.com?

Wiki WardsWiki, maybe. It’s a proper noun, not a descriptor.

well, ordering TOCS sucks manually, and twkm and I have discussed before that even a new wiki is called for - and then we need to reirganize the whole schmuck. no one has the access PLUS the time to do it all reir/reor/

Hmm. Is there an ‘all pages’ page?

yes. special pages

Found it

this is also one of those cases where a generated toc-frame might be nice for some folks, but we are really allowing for the omg-folks that might even use lynx

A generated toc should work fine in lynx. I don’t see the connection.

no, I meant the frame-style vs as-is

if there were a even half-way decent replacement i’d look at getting it installed.

I think it would still mean reorganizing somewhere, then an install, and a reloading because, last time we spoke of it, iirc, there was an issue with the interpretation of content between wiki.

indeed. otoh with only 71 pages it might be merely painful.

It’s still impossible to edit the wiki without logging in, right?

heh yeah, unless you mean external

correct. i suppose i could change that, and we could see what the spam levels are like.

If you don’t, the “If you use a Freenode IRC cloak be sure to login before editing.” line should go A very simple captcha would likely suffice to stop spam

well, we had idiots erasing files and screaming trash

well, that’s different. if you don’t login then your ip address is shown as the editor of the page, which people with cloaks generally don’t want exposed.

This does not apply when you /have/ to login. I’m going to delete it from the main page; it seems like noise.

hmm, quite a gap between what i’ve got installed and what’s current. i doubt you can edit it, i think i had to patch a script file. ahh, there, editpage.php

No, there was a segment of the main page itself dedicated to it. No reason to remove it from the edit dialog.

well, it uses the same language; so if you can’t edit without being logged in a reminder to login seems redundant. but okay, i’ll leave it in.

Could you hack it so the title of a page becomes a link to the “what links here” special?

I have runtime-linked a dll that has a dependancy on a second dll. However, the name of the second dll is variable until runtime. How can I specify the name before runtime-linking?

load it from a config file

Use dlopen/dlsym or similar mechanisms instead of normal linking

on windows config file?

realazthat, what is your real question ?

if yer speaking of elf-systems, there is a way to order and link such that one .so can automagically link up/use others

i’ve no idea. probably you can by changing something in the messages.

no elf windows pe

realazthat, go read about LoadLibrary()

does anyone know wherefrom I could get the algorithm for Permutations without repetition ?… google doesn’t help…

http://www.nist.gov/dads/ would likely help a href=”http://www.nist.gov/dads/”http://www.nist.gov/dads//a would likely help ..I’m going to go ahead and categorize the pages now.

sweet mind you, sections in the pages are oddly organized

I’ll add the skeleton first, /then/ worry about the legbone being connected to the tensor tympani.

thanks, twkm - I think that’d be fine then works for me

probably useful to leave redirects behind, perhaps. ahh.

Not actually moving anything yet. Read the “category category” page.

overview into order, then sections into pages apropos. That’s the prob with evolutionary-source.. It can work for a novel, but it’s really a pita for “documentation”

anybody here use SDCC ?

“RAIFUK … Redundant Array of Inexpensive Flash USB Keys”

wtf?

got 3 4GB ones

oh.. Sorta’ like a special “drive of dynamic partions”? that reminds me of the ancient t/s-1000, and the stackable mem-expansions that really ended up being “banked” mind you, I like the idea - but yer talking about “pretty slow” ala’ usb I’d love to see/try a bubmem USB device.. That’d be interesting.

aghhh my dorm room has been infested! i left out a can of pop and a sandwhich and these black flying vermin are everywhere

anyone know how to set the value in a semaphore, to say 100, other than “for(i = 0; i 100; i++) sem_post(my_sem);”?

.. well, you can set it at creation otherwise, POSIX semaphores don’t offer that capability use SYSV semaphores for that

oh and i can’t delete and re-initialize it becuase theres the possability of other threads waiting on it

mm, use SYSV semaphores

which is undefined behaviour

All you need is visit yer local hw store and either get sulfur-candles or the xterminator-canisters. Get all the folks out, seal the room, and unleash one or the other: everything is dead in a few hours at the library. Come back and air out. I’m also partial to sealing a garage/basement and mixing bleach+ammonia for a few hours.

hmmm that would be an option if this were’nt for an assignment… i can do this an uglier way… just was hoping to avoid it for aesthetics sake

isn’t there some spray that is fatal to small bugs but not to humans?

Petrol+fire?

surely we can exploit this size differential

there are no aesthetics with threads and sema/mutex. trust me, get the on-forever canisters; clean the room now, remove whatever lifeforms matter, seal the room, trigger it, and leave a few hours. We’ve had this issue with nasty lil’ moths into dryfoods and all over the house/basement before.

on the bright side, you don’t have to buy meat for the next week!

I wish to fuck folks would sell properly sealed grain-products that were irradiated, because the bugs are a major PITA almost worse than the moths all over is buying a bag of rice, and opening a canister to see the fuckers when you plan a meal.

even worse when your a vego, and you see them.

it’s worse with flour-products, naturally. I’d be happy with a setting on the nuke for “eradicate vermin” Folks need to get over their insane fear of “irradiated food”

and those people getting cancer from cell phones, they should just shut up and accept their cancer.

no, they should have used hands-free set :p

folks “getting cancer” from cell-phones are already fucked. Meanwhile, sleeting rads thru foods is no worse than salts or nitrates.

http://seancaptain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hands_free_cell_phone.jpg

but how does irradiating food help against vermins? i said HF _set_, not phone.

it kills off any lifeforms in the foods.

ha, true

what if your food is yeast?

folks also forget rads are not “fallout”.

do CRT’s cause cancer? that is still debated right? i thought it was the same thing as cell phones, electromagnetic radiation

yeah, radiation is not contagious - remove source, radiation goes away too it’s about the frequency

if you dumb the CRT in a land fill and the lead seeps into the water table.. yeah, it causes cancer

yep umm… /that/ is contam/fallout

I know folks should dump properly, but fuck it.

what is the common way to get the high or low byte of an int?

ahaa, some CNN headlines are just gems check this out BLOOMSBURG, Pennsylvania (AP) — Bloomsburg University’s student government president was charged with drunken driving just weeks after saying the media has unfairly portrayed students as irresponsible. i lol’ed..

you find the size on char and mask/shift on/in yer into “endian” and “representation” issues

ahahah! Christopher Bevan, 21, was pulled over last weekend after a campus police officer said he saw the student driving more than 50 mph in a 15-mph zone. oh wow

well, he didn’t kill yer roaches

my int has 16bit and two bytes

so what?

heh greetings

hi, icmp - we finally got back to code in time for you

no, they are not roaches thank goodness they are really small flying things like gnats or something

erm… because of the endian issues i thought

do what I said, forget the newcasts

i can’t

whats_in_a_name, your enter key is not puncuation.

everyone worries about endian.

i share this apartment with people i barely know

..whenever they dick shit

as far as i am concerned, until candid +b’s me i am fine

??? don’t understand what you’r gonna say

The rest of us shift, mask, presume limits and would deal in text

I’m tempted to add a “Category Mess”. _

have you considered % ?

what will % do?

I told you, it was born, evolved for a few months in ugly ways, and slowly expands. !book sonium

sry…

sry isn’t a word we are not yer book we are not your tutor, teacher or mommy.

i would tutor you sonium, but i am not the best source of knowledge when it comes to C

hey. I was just asking a simple question to get an idea in which direction to look

the “best” source are apropos books, experience, exposure and exercises I told you - now open the damned book or wander off to google.

I’m doing

my god.. the flies.. they are now migrating from the trashcan to the other side of the room…

integer issues are the easiest on the planet.

i just wrote: http://iso-9899.info/wiki/OverflowTruncationSufficiency#Using_sufficiency_instead_of_truncation your thoughts?

lemme load

I hope they dont ever try to use integers in teh ISS.

that snprintf is not standard complient AFAIK

hmm

orbitz, aye, the page was originally created by prec (that’ll be the “Do not rely on so-called…” bit

I never found that any sprintf variant liked NULL - that may be local

orbitz, just as a discussion of it PoppaVic, if the size is 0, NULL is allowed

uhh it has to as long as size i 0 “Ifnis zero, nothing is written, and smay be a null pointer.”

I usually would fopen /dev/null and do an fprintf.

PoppaVic, interesting

even more stnadard complient (and costly) i hope you dont make menys trings i’d suggest just using vstr it has its own *printf that handle this

NULL points to a valid 0-element array of whatever, doesn’t it?

compliant?

yeah, it will always succeed and always returns the char-count

Please read http://www.iso-9899.info/wiki/Category_Category before making changes to the wiki.. I should add a link somewhere prominent.

hmm.. I hope not

assuming /dev/null exists

this is why I wanted a full-up copy

well the only thing you can safely do with a pointer to a zero-element array is compare it for equality with other pointers…

That would take more than one afternoon.

but, null has no type other than ptr - and funcs are often sensitive, and just as often insensitive. I know. I know

true, they do have a certain tendancy to check for NULL for some reason

well, shit - I do too, when I can/remember.

Baughn, oh, sorry, did you just create that?

Pretty much

right-o

I never expect stdin/0, stdout/1, stderr/2 to change, but I begin to wonder if stdnull/3 shouldn’t be accepted.. We’ve got interfaces that assume and too little feedback overall

orbitz, vstr sounds nice

iirc, /dev/null works pretty much the same for input/output

orbitz, cheers, big ears

yeah, Vstr was sorta’ interesting btw, I was frustrated today and did a test with sizeof(char[]), and got the expected compiler error. “incomplete type”

In an instant of sheer horror, I realized that www.iso-9899.info and iso-9899.info both point to the same wiki - and that logging into one does not mean I’ve logged into the other. Thought you should know.

ouchies

when using send()/recv() with MSG_OOB, is there something different I need to be aware of? when I use it I can only read the last character I wrote (\n) but the identical calls with 0 isntead of MSG_OOB work.. uwhen using send()/recv() with MSG_OOB, is there something different I need to be aware of? when I use it I can only read the last character I wrote (\n) but the identical calls with 0 isntead of MSG_OOB work../u

Long ago, OOB didn’t work reliable. I’ve never suffered it

yeah, I remember when it used to crash win95 haha is that still the case though? that it is not reliable? I’m using it to transmit control messages about data transfers

No idea, I’d use tcp or udp.

rather then sending them in band I am using tcp

hi

I believe reading from /dev/null produces immediate EOF and writing to it does nothing.

SamB, that’s been my experience as well

ahh, ok. THat’s cool.. I will need that anyway

It would also be nice to have a newer version of mediawiki, so I could setup “please merge these two pages” signs and such

not exactly symmetrical, but quite useful

heheheha

what does that have to do with mediawiki?

well, I’m working on this interpretive-shell..

isn’t that just templates?

It would be helpful to have a version of mediawiki that /supports/ templates. And ships with them. And does the reverse indexing.

ah. I wasn’t aware that there were versions that didn’t !

hey

Of course there are

I was cogitating the idea of.. #include “badshit” doing “/dev/null” - if it plays the EOF card on a read, I’m easy.

I don’t know how to call this.. but does C run the second condition if the first one is false: if(condition1 && condition2) { }

well, yes, but it hadn’t occured to me

endra, no. that’s called short-circuiting

no as in.. no it doesn’t run it?

endra, correct

correct as in it doesn’t run it?

endra, yes

short-circuits are confusing to learn about, but omg - so handy

yes as in it doesn’t run it?

endra, are you a bot or just retarded?

Okay okay thanks I’m redarted

short circuits are only confusing in strict and/or impure languages ;-P

what’s confusing about it?

hello

only that folks need to realize that the order/logic/execution can short

How can i calcute the time cost of an algorithm?

the same idea as “I am a compiler, dickweed: not an assembler”

well it’s only confusing if you aren’t expecting it…

phet, you read a book on algorithm analysis.

Well, I mean a c program

same thing.

learn to write asm and count clock-cycles and all the other cals calcs I ain’t done that shit since my Z80 days

Im seaching for something like “time()” “getTime()”

and, with 4 and 8mhz machines on 64K - it mattered

you wanted to calculate, not measure.

gperf

phet, which platform?

debian / linux, btw Im trying it with “clock()”

clock() ? what resolution does that do ?

 

Personal j2ee web host

 

http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/clibrary/ctime/clock.html

rtfm

you get to feeling soooo old.

PoppaVic, hehe

Aand.. it’s done. Have a look at http://www.iso-9899.info/wiki/Category_Category for the entry point.

loading

It just now struck me that mediawiki also supports categories. Though this works.. well, if needed the conversion should be scriptable.

any one have a solid c tutorial nothing too old

The language is from 1989. How do you define “too old”? In any case, the best tutorial is K&R

that’s a book right

mitzevo, get a book.

!k&r mitzevo

k&r is The C Programming Language, 2nd edition, by Kernighan and Ritchie, http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cbook/ - be sure to see the errata as well, at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cbook/2ediffs.html

their_addr.sin_addr = *((struct in_addr *)he-h_addr); — why the casting to in_addr*?

Because sin_addr has type struct in_addr* Oh, and “struct in_addr” and “in_addr” are two distinct types. In this case, the cast is caused by C “inheritance” - h_addr has a struct type that is compatible with sin_addr, being sin_addr plus one or more extra members.

back - had to make Ma’ some lunch ok.. tried a few clicks after reading.. I get a login-scream or the same baseline drat

drat? is this Batman (TV series)

o.O

No. Try #batman for that.

there’s an official channel? lies

eruh?

The last time i heard anyone use the word drat, would have been robin exclaiming to batman about the Riddler/Joker/Catwomans plans

dude.. there is a time to curse, and a time to do something akin to a mere sigh

how many Catwomans were there?

2 one for the series, one for the later movies

I know how many were in my dreams.

and, the chick from the serials as a kid was /hot/ - plus, I’d seen here years later as a teenybopper in the old flick “seven brides for seven brothers” here/her some folks are just born with decent genes as a rule, gals with high-cheekbones seem to age well

LOL seven brides for seven brothers is awesome

good flick, it was even a decent series

oh come on! this is ##c

quiet, you

I’d discuss C if folks were not just lazy idiots looking for a handout.

what’s the maximum size that a text file can hold?

Genre: Comedy / Family / Musical / Romance / Western / Drama / Adventure more.

we were speaking of an actress, and I am sorry to admit I never recall her name.

did they leave anything out!

PoppaVic, i actually wanted to know how to dynamically allocate n-dimensioned arrays.

juliuss, files size is fs depedant.

ext3 here

juliuss, HUGE

what is the limit on files in ext3?

yep basix, i need a number

there is no “n-dimensional array” - never has been

Try wikipedia

juliuss, google it

ok

or google

a lot of helpers

I have to sympathize with Z’s frustration on folks and arrays

PoppaVic, well…let me rephrase. whats the right way of allocating and addressing multi-dimensional arrays?

what part of “there are no” is confusing?

is a multi-dim array really the right container for your use-case ?

PoppaVic, hmm…okay so there are no multi-dimensional array s

malloc and friends only care about a “block-of-mem” - that’s it. How you abuse it is not really a C issue, it’s your own issue.

zap0, well…i wanna know how does c address an array like arr[][][]?

!faq multi

10. C Preprocessor, 10.4 What’s the best way to write a multi-statement macro? : http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/q10.4.html

ah, not that.

Auris-: bad llama

!faq multidimensional

6. Arrays and Pointers, 6.16 How can I dynamically allocate a multidimensional array? : http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/q6.16.html

C thinks in ‘types’ and doesn’t even understand “arrays” well.

more like people don’t understand C’s arrays very well.

PoppaVic, okay Auris-, where do i get to learn about C’s arrays in detail?

any idiot can declare foo bar[10]; and then use bar[N] where N is greater than 9

K&R would be a good start

basix, read your book, read the faq, think a lot.

Auris-: well, the end result is the same.

PoppaVic, yeah..

basix, make a[][][], fill with sparse data, cast a ptr to a, dump the memory, look at it.

zap0, i’ll need a debugger for that

better to write the obvious accessors and deal.

basix, why?

zap0, is there a different way?

No.

zap0, I don’t think that will help a lot. observing will not help with C arrays as you can fiddle with them with luck.

C is just one notch above asm.. That’s it. It’s only redeeming quality is that folks can blow their foot off. I find that a good quality C doesn’t know about government at any level, let alone health-care or the IRS. It just does what is legal, in the most simple language it can manage.

basix, you are the problem.

zap0, huh?

you want to die? die. You want to burn yer face off? fine. You want to nail yer balls to the wall? Go ahead.

hehe

basix, it sounds like your looking for an easy answer, instead of the right answer. hence, you are the problem.

What makes me laugh the most hard is.. C is pretty portable.

Which reminds me.. there was a law suggestion on hearing here, a few years back, that suggested that only properly educated and bonded programmers should be allowed to use compilers or debuggers. It came to naught, of course, but that’s creepy.

I know.. It’s like registering artists/authors. THere are a /lot/ of books and art I don’t _like_ - but that’s me.

zap0, i’m not looking for an easy answer. i’m looking for the right info.

how will you know when you’ve found the right info ?

PoppaVic have you looked at this http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2452

I begin to believe “code” and “apps” and “libs” should be like buying a pump, or a wrench, etc loading ahh, I believe I’ve read that before. my own issue is in treating C as “asm” and the stacks as “objects” - I’m glaring today..

What do you think it would do to programmer quality if noone was able to try it before university? What would it do to OSS if gcc became illegal?

arreis kalva

And yes, that _was_ what they were intending.

well, number one.. I think every access needs a global-traceable # that is like a SSN or DL#

If I can’t track what the people in power are doing, then I don’t want them to be able to track me either. Vetoed.

I tend to agree, but folks is folks

there are other free C compilers.

well, germany already made network security illegal.

I do /not/ acept that anyone, anytime should be able to id a source

Could someone here tell me (or point me in the right direction) of how much more efficient switch() / case is than if / else if ?

mm_202, its not.

They weren’t aiming to make gcc specifically illegal. They wanted to make compilers that would produce (executable) code without first being authorized by some central authority illegal.

if the idiotic UN can’t ID everyone and mask them, then it’s all moot.

are the same then?

The justfication was that it would increase program quality and eliminate viruses.

mm_202, no.

hahahahahah yeah right

so you’re telling me that switch() is SLOWER then a bunch of if else statements?

‘twould do the opposite!

gcc is just a varian’t C compiler. This leads right back to the idiotic commies that write “standards”, not the imp-writers

mm_202, you don’t need to know.

mm_202, no.

The law was rejected, by a vote of 92 to 77

yeah, and It’d not be global anyway.

mm_202, your comparing apples with oranges at the C level, then asking at the asm level if they are fruit.

so basically they were trying to mess up the economy?

I don’t care. It made me want to bomb the idiots. Good question

Folks is folks, and they all have common “properties”

So short answer? If doesnt matter?

mm_202, it depends.

I don’t think the law would have lasted very long

mm_202, do you know how to produce asm from your compiler? have you looked at the code it generates?

I can look that up and no, I have not. but just using g++

Probably not. It was incredibly impractical.

mm_202, your compiler *may* choice to turn your switch into a series of if-else. mm_202, depending on the size of the switch, its speed various.

http://rafb.net/p/rg8w3P30.html

It *may* choose to turn it into some sort of table lookup, but there are issues with that idea - and most aren’t that clever.

i just want to copy a whole content of a file into a string

mm_202, depending on the use-case for the switch, the speed varies.

Okay, thank you. I’ll use switch because I think that its more readable than a bunch of nested if else’s

It’s safest to think of a switch as an if-else chain. It won’t be asymptotically slower; and if you want faster, better do the lookup explicitly.

mm_202, depending on the branch prediction on your CPU, the speed varies.

what compiler isn’t clever enough?

gcc, for one I don’t think icc does it either, but it’s hard to tell - I can’t read the mess it calls “output”.

gcc can! it can also decide that it ought not, though.

Mm. So it probably only does it for Really Large switches, then.

Baughn, back to your exe authority, i think it would be good if some psuedo-authority was wiling to verify compiled code to a specific standard.

Same shit, different day

The one I tested it with was a simple “case 1..2..3….10″, with breaks in between. No table.

huh. I’m not sure how it decides

I don’t see what such an authority could possibly do

that’s not C, that’s the compiler. The optimizer.

did it at least use a branch tree or something?

If you want behaviour guarantees, best use some kind of bytecode that guarantees it. Or bundle a proof, which doesn’t require any centralization either.

Baughn, give code a Tick. then publicly post its MD5 on its ‘approved’ list.

MD5 would be fairly easy to crack in this respect

it may also depends on the -O level you give gcc

whatever, MD5, SHA1, SHA3985792375

Better use SHA-256. For everything. It’s safe, and the others aren’t, so why not?

Folks need to start expecting the idiotic commies to write lex/yacc that supports their mandates. That’s it. There is no “asm” there is no “C” - there are platforms and standards

do you have any idea how boring it is to just look through machine code, and how easy it is to have problems whiz right by you?

SamB, if its a set of rules, a machine can do it.

And no, no branch tree. Straight if-else.

it will reject nearly everything

so be it.

The humorous part is… They have no commonality at all.

maybe Hello World would pass

what you folks want is a specific, extensible “pseudo-asm.platform” language.. But you ain’t pissed enough… yet

I have an ELF, and need to locate teh .ctors section, is there a way to do it without traversing thw whole array of section headers and comparing the names ?

No.

I think elves bbq well

PoppaVic, are you watching the lord of the rings?

Are the .00000002 seconds this will take an issue?

it’s not like their’s likely to be more than a few hundred sections!

nah, some vhs delta-force thing. Still cogitating my code

er.

You need to read it from disk /anyway/. Everything else is dwarfed by that.

there

there’s/there is/ no dwarfs involved

FUCK. A switch only works on ints!??

FUCK! yes.

No, it works on all integer types

yeah, he didn’t say anything about any .debug sections

dammit

what, you wanted to use it on structs?

spoiled by stupidity is not learning’

on a ustring…

strcmp ()

This is why I smile at C and laugh at kids Why can’t you create an array, find the proper indice, and use the indice?

Im not a kid. Thats what Im going to do.

Why can’t you use structures?

Im using classes.

to me, a lot of folks are “kids”

C++

Baughn thing is, it that there are 24 special sections

k and k

and there are no “classes” in C

and there are about 40 sections in an ELF

And?

PoppaVic,

so I have to search each one of those 24 in the 40 so 40 * 24

I know… this isnt ##C++ …

its a lot

you don’t have to write code for that

do you have 2 min to look on my code ?

No, it’s not

how do you print ascii in C

I mean, you write code for searching an arbitrary number

Furthermore, you could make a hash table or something. You only need to walk it once.

since that’s what there is

docmur__, printf(”%c”, c );

umm… C doesn’t care. You mean a linker?

No I am writing and elfinfo program but ok I think Ill have to do it that way

dude, readelf?

elves are disposable

but they are so cute

they may even be edible

Don’t say that where the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Elves can hear you

..no one wants to volunteer

Edible Life Form

is there a Society for Prevention of Cruelty to CCs, too?

There was, but it went bankrupt

dude, I am never “cruel”, and I’ve had to wax kittens - and I /like/ cats. I don’t need the guilt

how? did it try to sue Haskell.org?

Lawsuits from liberating credit cards

http://rafb.net/p/1UgAUL74.html

I suppose you meant “current continuations”, but that just doesn’t make sense.

anyone can give me a hint ?

Is it illegal to initialise a struct with a function that returns a struct? ( e.g. struct tm t = getStruct(); )

hi im looking for anyone who knows about programming

No.

how about a Society for Prevention of Cruelty to GCC

My family is bad enough. Family deaths are worse. And, having to admit that critters you like should DIE is worse.

Try #cobol

I’m getting an ‘invalid intializer’ error

Is that line placed in the global scope?

my only issue with GCC is the CLI and the fact they thought of front/back-end too late.

No, it’s inside a function

Paste your code? Yes. Here’s a hint: Ask an actual question.

one sec

Now, someone show me a CONSISTENT CLI and input to gcc, and I am listening

what should i modify in that code to have the content of a file into a string?

meanwhile, I write C and expect gcc

Hmm. Doug actually joined #cobol.

juliuss, what is a string?

char *

thats a pointer.

ok a pointer

juliuss, read about fopen() fread() fclose() in that order.

http://pastebin.com/m3d1ca763

zap0, is there a way to use fgets instead fread ?

Read http://www.iso-9899.info/wiki/String

juliuss, maybe, but thats like trying to go shark feeding after you owned a goldfish.

That code appears to define t in a global scope

sorry, it was snippets, t is within a function

Paste the code you’re actually trying to compile. I assure you, it’d work if you got it right, but I can’t tell from just this.

im wanting to make a program has all the how to guides of first time newbies for ubuntu or kde what not to install all the codecs and tell thm comands and hwo to guides everyone of the how to guides in one thing and has all the little codes for the terminal and shows step by step what a first timer can learn or do and also has a few fun things to do for the terminal so they wont be so scared of it at first me im no programmer and i dont knwo anything about mak ing a site to do this

die well

Haha baughn, do they really have a #cobol channel on here?

that program is already existing: man

lol

megaTherion, really? what is it mind if i ask?

you may try yourself: man man man man

megaTherion, there isnt alot of man.s out there for some this stuff i been looking

the older I get, the older I feel.. Really.. I can deal with folks bringing rugrats around, but commo is something folks feel is arbitrary

so you rather want to write manpages?

commo?

relax man

I really think they need to kill the BASIC language..

Absolutely everything is commo.. Agreements. There is no other way to talk - if you disbelieve, watch ##C for a few weeks

who’s they?

The people

megaTherion, not i wanted to throw a idea out for a programmer to make or thnk about making for newbies coming to ubuntu/linux i had a heck a time and for my first 3 months i kept going back to xp cause i didnt know and was scared of this system but now i got it set way i want im happy but i wish there was a guide with all the how to’s and codecs and stuff in it and all the codes for the terminal

they ain’t “us”

meaning you and your constituents?

Yep It really isn’t good to learn by, I don’t think.

get on it, i want a status report in 48 hours

You’d be better off with some of the newer languages.

exit

Yes sir!

then write a documentation or newbie tutorial by yourself, that has nothing to do with programming

The huge issue is that folks don’t recognize “languages” and that they refuse to accept, condone, deal with what they have. Here is ##C we expect English - hell, even /broken/ english we also expect C For some reason, these things bug folks. I dunno’ why, they are using the ‘net’ and even ‘irc’ I begin to suspect that folks expect as much from freenode, irc, internet as they do from wchar_t, unicode, C

My brothers wife, alas! she lost her reason, And without cords she could not be held in;

would you people PLEASE consider wtf yer doing and how yer speaking to which?

The Books Prophetic straightway I did open: Some said, Where dogs have scraped, sure she hath trod! But others cried, By magic arts she is bewitched! I took her round to all the monks, Who read; upon her pourd their holy oil; In every cloister I besought the Devil To grant some respite unto our Angelia; Alas! the Devil I did vainly conjure! - At last I took my whip of triple thong, And scourgd her garment right into her flesh; - The Devil said Adieu; he came not back; And so was heald Angelia! VOIVODA BATRITCH My brother Turks (may the winds take the word!), Why hide we truth, or wherefore wrap it up?

are you having problems in something in your life?

Our little land is pressed on even side; Hard task it is for us in her to stay; Mighty the jaws that open to devour her; Who then should dream to split our stock in twain? But take ye once again your Fathers Faith In order with us to defend our honour!

just die, yoo*

The wolf needs not the cunning of the fox, Nor hath a falcon need of glass to spy! Have done with minarets and mosques! Let flare the Serbian Christmas-log; Paint gaily too the eggs for Eastertide; Observe with eare the Lent and Autumn Fasts, And for the rest - do what is dear to thee!

what the fuck is that

If ye take not the counsel that I give, Why, then, I swear by name of Obilitch, And by these arms in which I put my trust, That both our faiths - they both shall swim in blood: And that which better is - it surely shall not drown! Bairam agrees not with our sweet Noël -

…

!ban yooo*

Brothers Montenegrin, ist not so?

all the time, but I consider ##C the folks I care about anymore

Tis so! Tis so!) MUSTAI KADI Ist so? Ist so? - Ye surely are all mad? Would ye give noxious prick to healthy leg! What mean ye - eggs and fasts and Christmas logs? Would ye graft such upon our Prophets Faith? Night is the time for torches to be lit:

twkm!

Away with torch when comes the light of day! In Allahs name, what parleys these for wisdom! Of Cross or Unbaptizd they ever talk - Dream of a way that we can never walk! Allah be praised! Two hundred years have passed,

idiotic bots

have you been worked a lot?

Since first we took the true Faith of our Prophet, Since first we bowd within the sacred mosque: By the Holy Kaaba, theres no trickery here! Of what avail the weakly faith of Christ Against the edge of our sharp, supple steel? When the true saint brings down but once his club, The land doth tremble underneath the stroke, Like empty pumpkin bobbing on the water! Handful of mortal men! Why thus so blind? All ignorant of sweets in Paradise to find, Ye fight with God and also fight with Man; Without Hopes kindly light ye live and die, Owning Christs Cross, yet living after Milosh! The Cross! - it is with you an empty phrase; Your Milosh throws you into some strange stupor, Or else intoxicates to wild excess. Better one day of prayer within our mosque Than four whole years of making Christian crosses! O Hurias! With those eyes of blue! - In agelong rapture might I gaze on you! Where is the cloud-shade that could rise

the eldest of sibs, trapped in marriage and with family/mother? What else?

this idiot is in IRCnet too

To shield me from those star-like eyes? - Those eyes from which keen arrows dart - Their burning rays would fire cold stone: Then what of me! - a weakly wight Made but to melt beneath their light! Such eyes are like to crystal water, In which, as in two pearls of dew, Thou gainst of God some deeper view, Seest more of God than on some clear Spring morn, When from the mountains shimmers silver sea! O Stamboul, thou delight of Earth! Thou honeyd Cup. Thou Mount of sugard pleasures! Thou sparkling bath of life and light, Where in sherbet bathe the fairies! O Stamboul, Palace of the Prophet! Thou sacred source of strength and might, From thee alone finds Allah his delight By his Great Prophet earth to rule - Could aught sever me from Thee! How many hundred times in days of youth, Fresh from my sleep Ive stepped towards the Dawn, Thy sea of light all wondringly to greet - Reflected there thy visage fair, Fairer than sun or moon or morn - In silver mirror there to greet the sky, And all thy towers and minarets sharp pointed;

there isn’t any staff here?

To hear uprise into the azure blue, At break of day in all the peace of Dawn, A thousand, thousand holy voices,

ah good

Proclaiming to high heaven, Allah alone is great, And upon all the Earth Mahomet’s name and dower; -

what stupid idiots

What Faith with ours could ever hear compare? What, other Altar Allah’s favours share?

/ignore yoooy

wtf?

I’d like to die.. I really would like the quiet. But, “promises made” and all that.

KNEZ YANKO (raising his cap) Thus, Effendia, thank I thee! Pretty sermon hast thou preached: What we sought that we have surely found!

lets ddos him

VUK MITCHUNOVITCH

get his entire site banned

I can’t help you… If you die, where are you going to program? Where I you find you to help me when I need? Think about it again

i have a good packet program here i did it myself hehe

Let Cross and Club together strive, But woe to him whose forehead shall be broken: A whole egg gams oer egg thats cracked, Yell hear of what I do - shall I so will!

Dude, shut up!!!

KNEZ YANKO Upon my Faith, for my own part, No more of this Ill hear! This hodja whos from Cheklitché, He crieth out Oo-hoo!

you know? that’s what keeps me going. It’s boolean: I can help folks or which I could.

High perched upon his hollow stem, As hoots an owl upon some age-worn tree. Whom calls he so, on high, From morn to morn, as day doth dawn? I trow he now hath calld enough! I must confess it easier were for me, If standing on my head were he! KNEZ ROGAN My left ear, how it now doth tingle! It means, I hope some joyful news. VUK MANDUSHITCH Come now, Baiko, blow into mine eye; A grain of dust doth make it very sore! SERDAR YANKO Strike now some fire that we may smoke;

oh, for the love of mike

For smoke is Islams very soul: Effendia will not be displeased. TOMASH MARTINOVITCH Now do the ravens croak and fight; Cheap meal shall quickly come to sight!

twkm

VOUKOTA MRVALYEVITCH Over my rifle step not, Baiko, Unless to step again - step back across it! VUK MITCHUNOVITCH (whispering in Yankos ear) He holds on to the tail of Hadji-Hadja, Nor will ever lose his grip, Till either dog or millstone go! SKENDER-AGA (displeased, seeing Vuk whispering) What meaneth this, my brothers Montenegrin? Who is it so hath fannd this flame? This thought unhappy - whence can it eer be To converse thus of vile apostasy? No perverts ask we; we can brothers be; Do we not fight and fight together, Share we not good and ill as brothers? Doth not veild Moslem girl, like Serbian maid. Offer fair tresses on the heros grave? SERDAR VOUKOTA O Land, thou art accurst, and fallest all to ruin! Most dread and horrible thy name is now to me! O Land, if I some knightly son may have, In youths first blush thou takes! him from me; Or if perchance I have some valiant, dear-lovd brother, He too is snatchd away before his time; Or if were mine some lovely bride - A bride more sweet than any wreath of flowers - She too would victim fall to thy fell scythe. My Land, I see thee delugd in our blood. Now thou art nothing more in very truth Than heaps of tones and mouldering tombs, Whereon our youth, resolvd and without fear. Holds solemn festival with War and Death! O Kossovo, Thou Field of ever tragic name, No heavier doom had Sodom in her flame! VUK MITCHUNOVITCH Shame on thee, Serdar, for such show of speech! Why all these voting and ardent breasts, Why all these eager-beating hearts within, Whose quick blood courses through warm veins of pride? Say, what are they? Sure sacrifice most noble, From fields of battle taking flight Into fair realms of poesy; Like unto sparkling pearls of dew, Which the sun lakes in joyous light to heaven! What greater shame than growing old, With faltering step and heavy eye, With brain grown cloudy in its tony case, With peevish look upon the deep-lined face, And brow all wrinkled, ugly to the view, The dim eyes sunken in perplexèd head, - Deaths ghastly grin upon the parchment skin - As peers the tortoise from beneath his shell! Why spakst thou so of Kossovo and Milosh? Our common weal collapsd in ruins there.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& – idiot!

Yet Montenegros name and strength of arm Came forth again from Kossovos dark tomb. Beyond the gloom into a Realm heroic, Where Obilitch with knightly souls holds sway. SERDAR IVAN PETROVITCH Mahomet gives you all a stupid head! Ye Turks, woe be unto your souls! Why deluge all the land in kindred blood? Two steeds make one too many for one manger

Dude, why on earth is this guy doing this?

because his mother is his sister.

Every packet he sends floods the goddamned net, someone get the site banned

he’s halfway through http://www.njegos.org/petrovics/wreath.htm

because he’s got a bot, thinks he and program, and believes he is “cute”

and/can

Ah! Finally!

That was interesting…

There he comes again

not really, it was merely tedious

hi ppl sorry, i am not bot no i am not sorry for anti spam filter webmail host spam in.. 3… 2….

No, just plain stupid

1.9… 1.0

you are assuredly “sorry” - use a dictionary use a thesaurus

I predict judgement

Of life I now can count full eighty years: Since I did lose the sight of this worlds light, I dwell the more within the spirit realm, - Although this body still holds back the soul. Within her darksome casket lockd and hidden, As flame doth burn in dark and earthy cavern. Full many a far-off land have I beheld, And the most sacred churches of our God, Which Earth responsively hath raisd to Heaven: I have lookd oer them all; seen each in turn; And oft enjoyd the altars sweet perfume. I have ascended too Olivets holy mount, Where Christ once gave the warning and prediction Of all that soon must come on His doomd City. I have seen too those sacred grottoes three, Where the Eternal Light did take on flesh,

!!Goddamnit

And Heavens own King did sanctify a manger, And where the Three Wise Men came to the Child, To offering make of all their gifts most rare. Gethsemanes dark garden I have seen, - Forgotten neer through suffering and through sin! A wind most mad hath nigh put out that Light! - One now beholds upon those fields so rich A hateful growth of thorns and briars, And Omars fane hath upraisd high its head On sacred stones that Solomon laid down; - A stable now is Holy Wisdoms Shrine! Strange are the changes in all earthly things; How markd they are by most capricious whim: The whole wide round of Nature feeds upon The milk all-nourishing of Mother Sun; Yet wantonly those rays strike hapless head,

My screen is nice and clean.. Next?

And burn to-day whom yesterday they fed! Not every river is it that hath bed, Where its onsurging waters free may flow: We all have seen that terrifying sight, Waters in flood, to devastate and blight! Our lot on earth, and what our destind goal - Two sphinx-like faces which we try to read: Where seems Disorder, Wisdom all profound? What are the children, what fathers of mans dreams?

use /clear )

That we call Real, is it Appearance mere?

Does anyone at all in the world like you?

Are these all mysteries Man can never sound? That which to man appears- is that the Real, Or are we simply trickd by our own eyes? This world of ours awakes the human will, And duty is not done apart from thought; Nor can our life proceed without defence: Nature herself doth ever furnish arms - Defence against a force that may break loose; Arms to supply a lack, arms to resist attack; - The very corn is spiked for self-defence, And thorns do punish plucking of a rose; Nature hath sharpend myriads of teeth, And pointed too how many myriad horns! Yet bark and shell and wing and speed of feet, And all this vast array of things confusd Hath yet some rhythmic Harmony and Law: Oer all this curious mixture of a world

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