define reference

like swap(*a,*b);

ah whatever the same concepts apply… you would need to understand the underlaying hardware quite good, obviosuly

a “reference is all you need to know to buy a book, by that author, on that subject, and see those pages you ‘refer’ to”

zu22, C does not have references. To pass a working copy of a variable to a function, you simply pass its address. The word “reference” in C is a misnomer.

yea and i C we use pointers

i thought most of Linux kernel is not platform specific?

bootstrapping however, is.

pointers /do/ “refer to”

oh i see ok

but they ain’t a “reference” - ain’t we havin’ /FUN/??

icmp_, is there a way around to using “larger” array sizes?

allocate the memory dynamically using malloc

icmp_, how do I find out what my maximum memory size is? okay

hmm doesn’t the C standard dictate what is a reference and what isn’t?

vmstat

Here is where I shall disclaim C’s problems about “references” - we knew what we meant for years, and folks like C++ perverted what we knew and agreed-upon for their own uses.

but plan it out ahead, using array[400][300[200] usually indicates bad design

I told it that over an hour ago

those bastards!

there are no references.

a pointer is a pointer - to somewhere of sometype. OR, you have a “value”. That’s it. there ain’t no more. C is /simple/

C is pass-by-value and C contains pointer data types. you can pass a pointer. it gets copied to wherever you’re passing it.

there’s no spoon only pointers to spoons or what…

oh, there are spoons - but they’s yer spons, not mine.

void foo(int *i){ i = 0; } main() shit ignore that

the more people move away from understanding adressing, the more they feel the need to invent sugary terms to describe what is going on

hehe

hey everyone, i am in need of help to complete some code…anyone willing to help me please?

well, there is “a copy of” and “an address of” - that’s it.

yes indeed but x86 addressing needs abstracting homework?

the former can be a ptr, or a ** or a ***, ****, *****….

not homework, its something i wanted to implement at work but don`t seem to be able to not a student anymore

ah, workwork

yes

pastebin a test case

can you give some more details

i have posted @ http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?t=93412&page=2

that’s more a shell issue than c, i’d say or do you want to do it in C?

I am creating a thread with a clone() call, what I want this thread to do is to suspend itself, so that root thread can resume it when needed. I don’t want to switch to pthreads or linuxthreads or whatever, after googling I found only one method - SIGSTOP + SIGCONT - are there any better ways to do it?

i tried several solutions in shell but the original program gives me a segmentation fault

my suggestion would be installing bash and just do a simple for command you’re on win32?

tried the fedora linux and the windows version

can’t you help you with win32 shell i’m afraid ?_?

. bf ft id pl rc v wn

To be honest, even ’sh’ is marginal.

old on i am going to use pastebin

Doze is doze, and *nix is *nix, etc

http://pastebin.ca/692419 the loop works for the first file, but segs faults for the rest

life sucks

hello everyone what does 11^5 mean ?

This is why folks suffer perl or make, etc

123454321?

hmm just use bash and chill

no context: where is your book, let alone the source

ksh

^ operation is not “raise to the power” right ?

or xor

dude, it’s not universal

yeah, it really depends on context

i am using bash

I shall not ask again.

#!/bin/sh find pc/ -type f | while read f; do ./normfet “$f” “$f” -nml -assign -ftr; done

btw, what’s a voronoi vertex?

if it’s like in C, 11^5 = 1011^101 = 110 = 6?

if you belieave that, yer insane.

sorry to offend you yeah got it Thanks

its a concept involved in building meshes from point clouds

are you a climatologist?

but the powers of 11 are neat too…1, 11, 121, 12321, 1234321, 123454321…

I’m on;y ‘offended” in that you really believe that shit to be “normal” and ask in ##C

fedt, how do you figure 1011‚^101‚ = 110²?

geographer

oh

cool, how old is the earth?

6000 years, haven’t you read the bible?

4billion years

People are strange - btw, micahcowan cute utf8.

00001011^00000101 = 11111110! blah

PoppaVic, thanks fedt, I’m thinking maybe you don’t know what ^ does.

im kidding

whew!

he is using some weird chars, 2 of them appeared as black question marks inside white hexagons and i’m using utf-8

I never can get the special-char stuff out fast enough. Horrible interface. Plus, we need better behavior from irc’s that can run on consoles.

zu22, if you’re seeing pars of chars, you’re not using utf-8

but i am: LANG=en_US.UTF-8

*pairs of chars

i’d start to debug your c-program, something like, is BUFSIZE defined?

well, the issue is that yer sub-2 is really a glyph and not all terminals can reflect it, just accept it.

ok stupid idea perhaps but have you checked your data so it’s not causing the segfault

zu22, I don’t know what to tell you. That doesn’t imply that your IRC program is using UTF-8, though, and a classic miscoding of utf-8 is to see two chars for one (translating the two or more bytes in a non-ASCII UTF-8 character individually)

hmm

yeah maybe epic4 is to blame

Not that I have a right to expect that everyone is using UTF-8, though; AFAICT the IRC protocol doesn’t support specifying character encoding, so anything goes.

I wonder how that would display in Win32. Looks fine in CentOS xchat2

RadSurfer, may be because I also am using Xchat2 ^_^

yup

coud be that but, i am using a binary from the author

unicode support is present.

as a rule, I’d not accept extended chars into my code. Text is another issue. The prob is that irc needs a complete beating anyway. Please try to avoid utf8 and unicode? please?

PoppaVic, if you insist

aqua-xchat.

i like epic4 cause it’s a nice basic ircII based cliennt and i hate ANSI control characters, colors, underlining and all that crap

Though this wasn’t code, obviously.

but, folks using consoles get screwed. And, (trust me - been there), some days all that works is ppp and the console.

i 3 consoles

the loop doesn`t work but if i do it individually it works( but i have hundreds of files to process)

I have a problem and I don’t want “that isn’t standard C because it involves a particular libc impliementation” answer.

nothing hurts like losing yer GUI and having to commo in console for help ;-/

heh i am more productive in a console, guis are too distracting

that’s nice, show us the issue and illuminate us so that we may save you.

for i in *.jpg ; do convert -whatever ; done

DeadParrot, things tend to be a little bit more permissive here than in (say) comp.lang.c

Nothing hurts like being forced to lose your vi and shell and use an IDE.

Though, IIRC, there is a (very low-traffic) ##posix chan

Okay.

I disagree. I’ve had to use cat/echo/less to edit files that got busted

s/vi/emacs

Terminals are highly productive

you don’t like ‘more’ eh?

is alloca standard ?

I am talking about wxWindows (Widgets?) not supporting MSYS properly.

This is why I no longer dick kernels and X11/gui shit

PoppaVic, what, no ed, sed? crazy_coder, no

gedit, nedit or bust

yeppers, I’d blown my kernel and lost all my editors, partitions, etc… It sucked massive

When I open a file with existing data using fopen(file, “wb”), the file is emptied! WTF?

its in the man pages but

will check that out but like kessel said could be BUFSIZE or some problem with the variable sizes

DeadParrot, this is surprising why?

use +wb DeadParrot:

what did you expect? you told it “write mode” worse, write-binary

Err. I want write-binary. It is a binary file.

nope you likely wanted “r+b”

I read this. Okay.

crazy_coder, that’d still have the same problem.

Thanks.

fopen is not open

“+wb” why ?

open uses manifest constants

open does atomic shit that fopen has no idea about

and fopen uses strings, to control things

+ tells it to append right ?

what’s “manifest constants”

crazy_coder, no, you’re thinking of “a”.

So “r+b” will allow me to modify the file, right?

getting fopen and open to fdopen together is not atomic AND is a challenge sure

crazy_coder, + means open in read/write mode. But “w” always truncates.

oh ok

Is he trying to open it for read/write at the same time?

newbies are so much fun - here, use a whip!

No.

Ok.

I just want to write.

Note that “r+b” won’t create the file if it doesn’t exist.

That’s fine.

r+b will open for read/write, but there’s no other way using fopen() to open for writing without truncating (except append mode).

modify or append ? how can a file be opened for read and write simlataeously ?

i can’t remember the last time that i had a binary file that needed to be written to, but i didn’t need to read from.

well… there is

crazy_coder, +

the position of + determines what ?

nothing

folks can use open() and shit,/nonatomic pause/,fdopen

so it is arbitary

it’s a flag

it’s almost a clusterfuck

PoppaVic, of course… but that’s why I said “using fopen()”.

mind you, fdopen() is seriously picky about agreed-permissions; but it works for fd and sockets, etc I’d love a better solution. But there ain’t many alternatives that blend well.

I pity anyone who tries to use the stand alone (no SQLite or Postgresql) version of my accounting software. Because of the carelessly written functions for writing data to binary files, along with the crappy socket (IPC) code, they will likely end up with interesting account balances.

and, (of course), sometimes the atomicity is an absolute-need

My boss really shouldn’t try to sell this.

crazy_coder, not exactly. “rb+” or “r+b” are guaranteed by the standard to mean something. “+rb”, however, is not.

well, I’ve seen shit like that: I don’t use it, even if it gets installed

how to print the current time time_t time;time=clock();printf(”%f”,time); ??

My boss is a goal oriented guy that likes deadlines and getting the most value for his money by hiring a one coder team for minimum wage pay.

folks refuse to believe in interpreters and compilers and machines - even when they poke out their eyes. They usually believe “gotta’ make this native binary”

yea the first character is a “mode” a, r, w. anything after that are just flags to modify that mode.

what’s a good channel for a perforce question? (or msg me if you know it REALLY well)

my sympathies

PoppaVic, why is the non-atomic period between the open() and fdopen() a problem? Once it’s open, it’s open, no? Doesn’t fdopen() simply wrap a file stream around the descriptor?

crazy_coder, time_t t; time(&t); printf(”%s”, ctime(&t));

Well, he didn’t want to use SQLite or Postgresql. He wanted to have his “own database engine.”

because, with the FILE* stuff, there is a period that is nonatomic where you MAY return to change permissions/access

crazy_coder, look up ctime(), asctime(), strftime()…

ahh, well: I never use SQL I never use SQL

strftime is nice

thanks

pick one.

PoppaVic, … not on the file descriptor, which AFAICT should be all that matters. uPoppaVic, … not on the file descriptor, which AFAICT should be all that matters./u According to POSIX, the permissions specified by the mode argument need to match up with the file access permissions of the open file descriptor.

I am the cheap option.

I don’t think changing the actual file permissions should have any effect.

I almost never use fd. I think in terms of strings and lines anyway. This is no excuse for the issues between open/fopen/fcntrl and acquisions.

micahcowan, if you open for writing and you don’t have permissions, then it will fail to open. iirc

OrngeTide, yes, but fdopen() doesn’t open.

well, please play with them for a few days - multi-platform.. It’s depressing

PoppaVic, yeah, yeah, I know… and just ‘coz POSIX says it don’t mean it’s always (or even ever) so… But it gives me a right to be indignant!

I agree, docs are always useful, and usually gloss shit over

the SDL is a myth in alot of software compaines. It’s up to you to gather requirments and present a timeline that even a douchebag can agree with

micahcowan, oh you’re talking about fdopen. yea if you don’t match up the modes between fdopen and open, you could end up with errors from fwrite for example because open wasn’t called with write perms

I still can’t understand why fopen() “args” don’t reflect open() flags

OrngeTide, right; but the issue was whether changing the file permissions after a successful open() would screw up the fdopen(); I was thinking not. PoppaVic, yeah…

I mean, sure - backwards-compat, fine.

micahcowan, oh changing like rwxrwxrwx perms? it wouldn’t screw up, but i wonder if you would still be able to write the file if the inode’s permissions were to change after you open the file.

I wrote a special variant of fopen() for one lib I had, that generated an open() interface, and did an fdopen - but even those two are nonatomic.

Actually, his game already works, single-player / client-side.

hi

PoppaVic, why again do you need an atomic fdopen? you could just fdopen, call stat. and fail in your wrapper if stat doesn’t have the right perms. if you’re that concerned. but with open i can change the perms AFTER open succeeded anyways.

the absolute “best” solution I ever found was to create a dir and create files under it. Restricting real access to my interface; and that’s silly in many ways.

hi Teckla

oh, shit - single??? No wonder it works.

single player games are good if you’re antisocial.

Hi OrngeTide

or if you have no friends to play with

I’m not sure you know much about game programming. I think most of this is pretty standard stuff.

OrngeTide, heh, and what about the non-atomic pause between the stat() and fdopen()… I’m not sure how that fixes the issue (if there is one).

you need to tell him - with a 2×4 as required - that a multiplayer or client/server game is much like a PBM game.

I think game programming is like OS programmer. because I’m an OS programmer. I think shopping for groceries is like OS programming too.

certainly, I’ve done realtime and my own programs that never needed client/server interfaces.

Based on my research, I think his design is correct. I’m not sure I understand why you think he’s all confused and doing it all wrong. *shrug*

micahcowan, i don’t think there was an issue. the only thing is that fdopen can succeed when the files perms have changed after they were modified with open. but they could also change after they were modified by open, so read/write seems like it would have to take this into account too

so’k - please don’t volunteer to help him add infinity-players.

(what is a PBM?)

What’s “infinity-players”? I guessed PBM as “Play By Mail”

Teckla, 4 billion ipv4 ips * 65535 TCP ports == infinite.

remember ‘infinity’? Well, don’t let him remote the fuckers and stick you. yes

OrngeTide, yes… but are read/write supposed to fail on permission issues? I think once it’s open, it’s open. At least, I note that POSIX doesn’t define an EPERM condition for write.

ohh. play by mail. just needed context for my english interpreter

Play by mail rox! Firetop mountain ftw

After I open a file, can I just increment the FILE pointer with file++? What function to I use to jump to a certain offset?

I’m not sure I understand. He’s taken into account bandwidth and such already.

For many years, PBM was nifty; then email; then submit

i like turn based games where you get a handful of moves per day. be it by email, web or BBS micahcowan, i think they are. but i don’t know for certain.

ok, I may be wrong: good luck, and I did not ever mean to disuade you.

No one answers.

micahcowan, as a previous NFS programmer i don’t see how you can enforce posix’s behavior over NFS. but NFS is weird umicahcowan, as a previous NFS programmer i don’t see how you can enforce posix’s behavior over NFS. but NFS is weird/u

it was an idiot question, and you don’t understand FILE* if you ask it

Oh, he’s most surely a newbie game programmer and all But he’s done a lot of research first. So I suspect he’ll still get tripped up on lots of stuff, but I do think his goals are (mostly) attainable (with enough work) uOh, he’s most surely a newbie game programmer and all But he’s done a lot of research first. So I suspect he’ll still get tripped up on lots of stuff, but I do think his goals are (mostly) attainable (with enough work)/u uOh, he’s most surely a newbie game programmer and all But he’s done a lot of research first. So I suspect he’ll still get tripped up on lots of stuff, but I do think his goals are (mostly) attainable (with enough work)/u

don’t become the nigger/drone

DeadParrot, FILE is meant to be a completely opaque type. And, particularly, it does _not_ point into the contents of the file in some way, as you seem to be supposing it to. You want fseek() and such.

die.

micahcowan, i could write a program to test out the idea. and try it on linux and freebsd to see how other people are interpreting posix

Too late, heh. I figure out the low level details of all the hard stuff

Why?

Thanks.

omg

GINMF

OrngeTide, as could I. But I figure I’ll do that the next time I need to care about it. ^_^

I’m partial to tcp, but games are going to need 2+ channels, and at least one is udp.

DeadParrot, fsetpos, fseek .. you should pick up the inexpensive PDF on ANSI C and read the section on stdio.h functions micahcowan, well i want to know so either you or i must write it

We’re going to see how ugly the latency is with TCP first (as a learning experience)

Inexpensive being free, if you mean the latest public draft of C99, which is just the official C99 standard, fully ammended.

PoppaVic, sctp then. it has multiple channels and you can make the connection oriented data packet based if you wish

It’s pretty easy to add “reliability” unto a UDP stream

Hi! what is the maximum size of an array in C? I try to allocate 10M, but get a segfaultq

Stevens covers the subject pretty well It depends on the OS/compiler.

micahcowan, yea. or you could pay the $18 for the release version, which is the same as the draft versoin, but doesn’t say draft on it.

Teckla, gcc/linux

akos, did you make it a local variable or global?

You are trying to allocate 10 million what?

OrngeTide, local

akos, really anything beyond 2M is excessive and you should use malloc

10M ints = 40M aha, ok

OrngeTide, does it include the corrigenda, now? It didn’t last I checked (FWIW, I had already bought it before the newer draft was avail).

Ah. Don’t put big things like that on the stack. Use malloc()

akos, yea. you probably used up your stack space. i think the limit is around 16M micahcowan, the one i bought doesn’t.

so for a 10M array i would do a int *arr = malloc(40 000 000) or sthg like that no?

OrngeTide, yeah, what I thought. Feel a little ripped off now that there’s a _better_ version, that’s free.

malloc is nice because it can return a failure instead of segfaulting

And, I think it might be $35 now.

akos, malloc(sizeof(*arr) * 10000000);

yeah

int *arr = malloc(10000000 * sizeof(*arr));

ok, thx

A draft has been available for many many years.

akos, because you don’t really know what size an int it. (nor should you care) you should care what size arr points to

right, sorta a stupid question (I haven’t been doing C for that long) - I use select on a read fd_set that has a listen socket in it (so that I can use accept if that socket has something waiting on it), however select seems to think that the listen socket has something there, even though no connection is pending

or perhaps even calloc

to me, this seems like “event-handling”, where “events” are of limited size and compiled here to go there to do.. If bob gets there first, so be it.

Hmmm, I like OT’s malloc better. Looks better with the sizeof() first.

yeah

rypt, if select says the listen socket is pending then call accept()…

Xgc, ok…

OrangeTid, but supposedly i want int to be 32bit long, what should i use as a type?

Teckla, i usually do sizeof *arr .. with no parentheses.

OrngeTide, but there is nothing pending there, thats the thing

akos, uint32_t ?

The latest draft hasn’t been around all that terribly long, Xgc.

what is the return value of the select() call?

OrangeTid, thx

And I bought my copy probably around 2002.

rypt, i think it’s a bug in your program.

I’m still torn on that, sometimes using one, sometimes the other

draft? bought?

bought my _standard_ copy.

ahh

Teckla, well it’s an operator not a function. and since i almost never do sizeof a type it looks very consistent in my code

Didn’t buy the draft, obviously

I’d never waste my own cash

I suppose you’d have a bridge to offer me if I had, eh?

PoppaVic, who said we used our own money to buy the standard?

Well, I did. But I’m just that sort of geek.

i expensed mine.

True.

certainly it would matter if I was paid to comply.

managers will sign almost any PO for under $50.

OrngeTide starting to think so too since i’m not getting a segfault when i try to see the return value of the select ;x

Spent some money on the ISO standard for _BASIC_, too, until I realized that what I’d bought was a single-page notice that the standard had been withdrawn! I got my money back…

ewww

It reminds me of people who do “return (x);” instead of “return x;”

rypt, ah. yea that sounds bad. maybe valgrind can help? Teckla, yea. exactly

(not for practical use, of course–was just curious)

folks that obsess about () for keywords really, really eat my shorts.

Teckla, although if i were to write a language i’d make () requires for all those things. because i’d let you define your own compile-time evaluator functions and they could take multiple arguments.

Do you think gettimeofday() or times() is better for a game server that wants to track time passage down to 1/60th of a second?

PoppaVic, “coding style” is such a bullshit discussion anyways

yes but it’s a wonderful waste of time

i keep getting pulled into style meetings at various companies i work for. it’s so silly.

If I were to write a language, I would make { and } required, even if a block only consisted of a single statement

makes me want to not indent any of my code.

why back in my days they hadn’t invented the semi-colon yet, so…

as a rule, I’d just ask Xgc or Z or twkm or pizza_ - yer heading down a slope of greasy-stupidity. u as a rule, I’d just ask Xgc or Z or twkm or pizza_ - yer heading down a slope of greasy-stupidity./u

END. Teckla, that’s not too bad. i wouldn’t have {} .. i’d use being and end. and allow you to override them with your own evaluator

I’ve already pretty much decided on gettimeofday(), but OT has done lots of low level voodoo programming, and may have some special insight into times() vs. gettimeofday() for that particular usage scenario.

here, take a valium/paxil

if you have a recent kernel there is a monotonic clock which is realy handy. bif you have a recent kernel there is a monotonic clock which is realy handy./b

Ah. I dislike “begin” and “end” because all the editors I use day-to-day can do brace matching, but not necessarily keyword matching. I like to be able to jump to the top and bottom of blocks easily.

clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, &tp); .. but on old versions of linux it will fail because it’s not supported

dude, there are at least 3 other folks herein I’d trust first. I say this not meaning to be cruel

atm I’m using Solaris. Heh

Teckla, i use vim which takes like 10 seconds to add a new syntax highlighting feature

And old Solaris, to boot

Teckla, hrm. if it’s not super old it might support it anyways

Holy crap. It’s there.

i wish RDTSC-like functionality was standard on all unixes. Teckla, yea. solaris was like 10 years ahead of linux like 10 years ago

This API looks designed for exactly this kind of thing

10 years ahead 10 years ago?

actually 10 year ago it was 20 years ahead of linux.

so 20 years ahead?

fedt, now i’m saying they are 30

hi! i need an int type that is guaranteed to be 16 bits on all platforms, or at least unix-likes. what should i use?

ahh

See? OT is a gee-nee-us.

afaik short int is not *guaranteed* to be 16 bits

short is guaranteed by the C standard to be at least 16 bits

ima lead another unix/bsd v. linux web hosting holy war!

You knew wrong.

anyways linux as almost caught up to solaris. and solaris is not moving forward nearly as fast, so one day linux might surpass solaris. if you accept that some of linux’s “progress” involves it being non-unix and weird

ah, i need *exactly* 16…

Plus, I don’t mind surly, but I do mind noxious.

maelcum, well if your system has 18 bit words it’s a bit hard to make a 16 bit one.

umm, no

C89/C90 does not have an “guaranteed to be exactly 16 bits” type, but C99 does, called int16_t.

see stdint.h

maelcum, short is at least 16 bits. and 0xffff is 16 1 bits set. so you can come up with a solution i think

okay… it’s the size field of a bootloader that should be patched from a C program.

(And even then, I think Zhivago told me C99 is not REQUIRED to implement the intN_t types.)

int16_t or uint16_t

omg

bootloaders run in real mode

int16_t is optional though.

yes indeed

dude, programs that “patch” programs and themselves are angerous and evil

GRUB runs in 32-bit flat pmode. it has a tiny real mode boot strap for the real boot loader (read: operating system)

dangerous

if short int is 16 bits on all variants of x86 i’m fine with that

it isn’t stop talking shit

Self-modifying code is 31337!

ah oops, i know what i messed up, i forgot to create the socket() for one of the sockets i was trying to use ;p

I wish I had a free-pass on airlines to hunt some folks.

this is about the very first part of it, the part that resides on the floppy boot sector. it’s a university assignment, you know…

maelcum, it probably is. why be x86 only? if you’re going to do that why not just write your program in assembly or C#

one good argument is that libelf is a C library

maelcum, yea. there are competitions to write demos that fit in a boot sector.

I used to write self-modifying 6502 and 6809 code. You could write wicked fast algorithms that way

hehe my boot sector is actually a whole lot smaller than linux’s

Not that I advocate writing self-modifying code now, of course

sure, when the machines were only going to hurt themselves; pre *nix

C#?! Bite your tongue!

http://www.256b.com/ .. 256 byte demos archive. nearly all of these can be installed in a 512 byte boot sector too. (they are all ASM, not a C related link)

(the floppy boot loader was removed in linux 2.4.21)

I’d remove yer ass too

Teckla, C# is supposed to be a virtual machine for a bunch of different architectures. but since Microsoft seems to only make .NET for x86 i think it’s x86 specific. (if i am allowed to ignore the Mono project)

Unix existed before the 6502 and 6809, actually.

umm.. yes, I know.. More, I am aware no one had similar until minix and then linux.

You definitely should ignore the Mono project. itsatrap.

mr. de icaza is a trapper

Teckla, well they will always be two steps behind Microsoft. So i’m not sure if it makes sense to develop and ship against Mono instead of .NET.

Surely you jest. You didn’t know about early-early-1980s Unixes such as Microport?

MS has an embedded version of the .NET framework that runs on ARM

Teckla, 6502 came out in 1972 though

all I care is: remember my age and exposure There was nothing sensible until minix and THEN folks lept it on jackals. leapt

Java. It’s GPL’d, patent trap free, much more portable than C#, and includes a standard GUI, too!

Teckla, and Xenix was out in 1980. that’s an old small unix

That is entirely incorrect.

But, historical is just good for laughs

Teckla, oh i think if you want a virtual machine Java is certainly a good choice. although I’d probably go with something like parrot if I needed a VM.

dude, I remember hearing a lot of shit.. ‘microport’ was a term I can vaguely recall.

Yep. Microport, Xenix, that Unix clone written by the Mark Williams company, Qnx (which was not really Unix, but close enough), and a few others. PoppaVic does not know his history well enough on this subject.

oh, shit. no… not xenix

what about A/UX ?

Sure. I don’t mean to suggest you should always choose Java over X. But you should always choose java 6 over C# / .NET / Mono.

dude, I lived those years.. Please. The pain.

A/UX was late 80s though, iirc.

Good Lord. I forgot about A/UX. My brother used that on his Mac. Heh.

Teckla, you should unless you’re writing Windows only apps.

oh, gods

Teckla, I wish when Linux came out it was like A/UX. I kept wanting to make something like Finder for X11. bTeckla, I wish when Linux came out it was like A/UX. I kept wanting to make something like Finder for X11./b

I lived ‘em too. It wasn’t that bad. Starting with Java 6, Java is even good for writing Windows apps.

PoppaVic, as if these modern computers aren’t a knotted ball of problems too.

 

Geeklog Web Hosting Provider

 

dude, I was STUCK - paid to save an idiot that refused to listen - w/o decent docs and support. Ignoring my advice.

Teckla, call me when they dump swing

how come?

Sun made huge GUI strides with Java 6 / Swing. Well, you can always use SWT, I guess.

PoppaVic, do you find idiots normally listen? how is this not business as usual? Teckla, I like AWT

well, “sorta’ paid” - in that I saw books or cash when /he/ got results from insane expectations.

is there a way to put a character into stdin (NOT stdout), and not from a file or the keyboard?

Teckla, swings web design seems to add a lot of latency. i can’t bleieve they could have fixed it?

like, say i want to put the char ‘a’ into stdin

Regardless of what other people say, I actually think AWT is a decent choice for many projects, you just may need to be prepared to write some of your own widgets, if you need advanced stuff. No.

Teckla, i think AWT is ideal for teaching students about Java. it’s simple and lets you draw stuff in a very generic way.

anyone else? it is not possible?

They aggressively profiled and improved Swing in Java 6 and plan to do more in Java 7.

man my pascal courses were all text. if we had a standard way to draw a simple bar chart or something, the class would have been a lot more interesting.

since when is “drawing” about “get ‘er done”?

Teckla, well it’s do or die for them really.

folks need to watch their asses

As far as desktop apps are concerned, you mean?

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9035478

whats_in_a_name, streams are guaranteed 1 char of pushback.

presentation is not interpretation is not the code betwees between

PoppaVic, visualization is an important branch of the computer industry. Teckla, yea.

OrngeTide how’s efnet

italy, same as ever.

whats_in_a_name, see ungetc()

Another reason to avoid Vista, especially considering all the “false positives” when Vista decides it’s been pirated.

italy, it’s more fun because i can troll and insult people without consenquences.

Auris-: you know hoe many folks don’t realize this?

Teckla all that will do is piss off customers i think

PoppaVic, no idea.

Well, there’s always SWT, if one does not like Swing

Bend over.

Auris-: well, they won’t read the docs, and lex is misleading anyway

You’ll be happy to know, of the dozen or so people I know that tried to move to Vista, all but one moved back to XP

Teckla, yea i never looked at SWT Teckla, is that the native widget wrapper?

I’m just learning SWT now. I got moved to a new project that uses it a lot. Yes, it’s a native widget wrapper.

PoppaVic, ah that. sure.

Teckla, yea my buddy who used to be a swing architect told me a bit about it.

Though from a “purity” point of view I prefer Swing, since SWT requires OS dependent dynamic libraries and such, which may not be available for all platforms.

PoppaVic, what do you mean? You don’t like lex?

Ask him why they over-designed the shit out of Swing for me.

Teckla, i like using the opengl bindings. also requires a dynamic jni lib

Auris-: we’ve even folks that scream that “buffers” and “buffering” are /wrong/ - I keep wondering why, but I’m old and set in my ways

Teckla, oh he quit Sun. he hated it there.

I’ve considered inventing a C library which makes it easy to write your GUI in HTML, but makes it feel all integrated and such. Why did he hate it there?

Teckla, HTML? i’d rather have an API inspired by Display PostScript or PDF. Teckla, because there were a lot of idiots on top pushing down stupid designs. plus the place is just generally a bad place to work.

is being a professional programmer all that fun really?

nah

no sucks

If only because any modern OS has HTML rendering support already

i interviewed at Sun once, but some of the things the people told me in the interviews turned me off. so i turned them down. (plus they weren’t offering me enough money)

italy, if you like challenges. and sleepless nights

You mostly end up working on stuff that is no fun whatsoever.

yeah, like IRC

Teckla, i think html rendering is black magic and no two systems do it the same. DPS/PDF is much simplier and easier to understand. and does not require dynamic reformatting

i’d rather play with a synth all day

OrangeTid, what did you not like about Sun?

icmp_, the developers i talked to were more interested in having an office than doing any real work.

they weren’t looking for blood?

ha!

I’d point out that HTML is not GUI and vice-versa, but there are an awful lot of similarities. Mostly, it’s a console-interface.

I wish I could disagree, but I agree. The fact that HTML renders different from browser to browser SUCKS. But then again, the web is still a remarkable success, even given that annoyance.

they kept telling me how much time off they get and how they don’t have to stay at work late.

sun’s latest “visionary” says they are going back to their academic roots wonder how that will turn out

wtf? you bunch of slackers. no wonder your company is in the toilet.

I’ve afraid to know I’m

academic roots … most uni professors don’t work too hard either.

HTML has evolved, it basically is a GUI now. At least, it is ABUSED as such.

I agree with the latter

Sun is a big company, maybe you just interviewed for a crappy group or division.

how to swap 2 variables of any type without using a temp variable?

i don’t necessarily agree; if they’re well-managed and plan things properly they wouldn’t need to make up for mistakes/lost time by staying late often, as most folks end up doing

go work at ARM instead.

Teckla, it was for the solaris kernel group.

folks always forget the idea of presentation vs input: who/where?

3 xors will do the trick, google it

OrngeTide do you have a degree

pizza_, profs just publish papers and then go back to their own pet projects. without regard as to the business value of the project.

well, if yer including manager/sales-drones playing CYA - someone else always suffers

i much prefer the start up mentality. latch onto an idea. bust your ass until you either make it or fail. rinse. repeat. italy, i have 98.6 degrees

hahahahahhahhahahahaahahahahhaha

I hope you die in the classroom, really.

italy, (i’m a warm body) places don’t even ask for my education.

Wow. It’s much different here (Twin Cities)

i have coworkers that have anything from bachelors in CS to masters in Jazz.

which city? i am from the cities

Here in the Twin Cities, you can be qualified up the wazoo, and they’ll still find an excuse not to hire you, so they can justify offshoring the position.

OrangeTid so it’s just being the best eh? OrangeTid my interest is becoming the best programmer in the industry

Teckla, yea. west coast has far more liberal business practices. Teckla, like every day is casual friday.

not really, they still want footprints - they just don’t all agree on the size/ depth /stride of those prints.

I’ve worked with a few that have a masters in BS.

Teckla, I wore a tie once to meet some VCs and the CEO and CTO told me to take it off saying that was way too formal.

lol a masters in BS

(VC==venture capitialist)

Heh, cool. I’m all for being comfortable while you work.

you mean a MS or a masters degree in bullshit?

and worked /for/ more, I suspect

Where do you work?

currently i am at school, but i live in the cities

http://betterexplained.com/articles/swap-two-variables-using-xor/ there are reasons not to use it

Teckla, some guys. especially ones that have to physically move equipment just wear t-shirts, boots and blue jeans. Teckla, other guys might wear collared shirts (short or long sleeve) and some khakis. Teckla, and a few wear shorts and sandals, or no shoes at all.

and the real men are just happy wearing pink

a lot of people on the vmware campus go without shoes. we’re pretty far from the beach though.

i sort of want a degree simply for oversea work

whats_in_a_name, wearing a pink shirt proves your confidence in your own maculinity.

This is why I don’t much five a shit anymore give

italy, i am only interested in jobs in the US and Canada

or that you are homosexual, but hey

OrngeTide hmm i’d love to work in vancouver

i’m so confident i don’t wear anything whatsoever

the culture is incredible there

vancouver is a nice town.

“we all live on the beach, we are leet”

i’m happy with san jose really.

yeah.

i like the utter lack of culture, and the rampant geekiness

“we are so cool, we can do it all today - and get a payraise”

PoppaVic, let surfers program your project and watch your schedule go out with the tide.

“we trust our boss” nice.

trust your boss? talk about drinking the kool-aid.

Folks like twkm, Z, Xgc and pizza_ are out making a living - the rest of us wish we could, and some of us just code w/o income. Folks? Deal with it. I joke-you-not.

getting paid to code doesn’t make you better than doing it because you love it. it actually probably reenforces bad habits.

Peeler bars.

canada?

Xgc, what is that?

code w/o income or coding is not part of the income?

Their term for Strip clubs.

Xgc, what’s a peeler?

ahh

“the rest of us wish we could”???

ah

Xgc, oh. strip clubs here in san jose don’t serve alcohol. only bikini bars do.

hmmm ;x

if you can’t get a job coding in this market then you’re doing something seriously wrong

dude, earning for coding is a plus. I’d code - I /do/ code - w/o pay.. I enjoy it.

i went to a bikini bar and i never saw so many flat chested ugly asian girls and fat latinas in one place.

lol

sure, there ain’t a person here that can state they wouldn’t take money for what they already do.

that is bordering on too much info.

Hooters has slightly better standards.

I’ve been a “professional” developer for almost 20 years

Xgc, we don’t have hooters here.

if folks focus on tits, they need to “code” with tits. I’ve never had this issue, since more than a handful is wasted.

I code because it is interesting

tried it, not C coding, but other, and God I would rather beat nails or drive truck for a living and code for myself.

I’d keep coding even if I won the lottery, but I sure as heck would do stuff that’s more fun

good deal. The others I mentioned I also respect. But the kids we geet here are just… well, I want to own a Soylent-Green plant.

now that’s practical solves world hunger *and* overpopulation

With age comes wisdom

I tend to agree. I’d rather code like I cook, work leather, etc. Than get paid to do so.. I despise owners that change the rules whenever. oh, lord.. I wanted such a plant before I ever met you or ##C

the best would be to be your own boss heh

PoppaVic, i just go to the clubs to support the girls who lack the job skills necessary to get a real job.

MIPS can trap on overflow - is there anyone that could explain what exactly trap means? I do know this is a C channel, but I hope someone could help. Thanks

you are a true gentleman, sir.

tajen, signed x=INT_MAX; x++; .. it can trap that

traps are usually related to the cpu and platform

read a book about MIPS arch and asm

hehe, I do know how it would “trap”, but does trap means the same as crash or something? I am currently reading the book in front of me and didnt understand what they meant

Hi, I have an small question. I have a program that interprets expirations by the month number, but my script receives info with the Month in Letters. What could be the best way to get that info and convert it to the month number?

C says overflow/underflow of a signed number is undefined, iirc. and I think it’s perfectly valid in terms of the spec to have “undefined” mean it throws a non-standard signal.

yay sorted my segfault etc ;p

tajen, trap means exception. if you want MIPS to x86 vocabulary translation tajen, arithmetic overflow on MIPS is not different in function than divide-by-0 except it’s optoinal on MIPS. on unix ports to MIPS it’s normally turned off.

I’m a guy, and older guy.. I can look at women and say “gee, that’s nice engineering”; a guy and “hmm, dude is hard” or a kid and say “gee, he/she is cute” - wtf is wrong with you people that think any of the prior is rude/obscene?

it’s pretty easy to make a C compiler for x86 that emulators the behavior too if you really wanted it. s/emulators/emulates

“in letters” meaning “Jan”, “Feb”, etc?

thanks orngetide

“dude is hard” … uhhhh

yes

abonilla, like %b in strftime ?

yes! what b%?

abonilla, %b prints out Feb, Mar, etc. you want the opposite? there is strptime which is like scanf for times. but it’s POSIX not ANSI abonilla, you could write your own thing, but it would be dependent on the locale. (think about month abbreviations in other languages)

9 2008 GMT from the Certificate info that I fetch, I plan to awk the month and use it for str2time 2008 $month 1 1 1 no, it’s a simple script. It’s only those 12 abreviations

janvier, fevrier, mars, avril, mai, juin, juillet, aout, septembre, octobre, novembre, decembre

I get them in English only.

abonilla, seems easy enough to just use scanf to grab %s .. and compare that string to a list you have.

I just don’t want to do a case for May then 5, case Jan 1

I’ve seen plently of films/sports where i saw a guy and might have been in awe of his build. otoh, I recall a neighbor or two like that, and they “got old” - so I know where it leads.

i know 0 about writing code

same sorta; headspace as “man, he’s GOOD” and knowing theat it all goes to shit later.

const char month_tab[] = {”Jan”, “Feb”, …, “Dec”}; int get_month(const char *buf) { for(i=0;i12;i++) if(!strcmp(buf, month_table[i])) return i+1; return 0; }

yeah that

abonilla, oh well if you don’t know how to code then there is not much I can do to help you.

what was that last if for?

also, beware calendar date/day/time - I shit you not

abonilla, checks the table. PoppaVic, i hate date formats. nobody really agrees on a format. seconds since epoch is my favorite time format. but nobody agrees on an epoch either.

yes, quite a mess

OT, until we get a universal time/date/lib, we can’t - and gregorian is the least of it yer being polite… It’s a brown clusterfuck.

PoppaVic, oh i know. i looked at supporting more than just gregorian once for a program and it was like all this crazy conversions and i had no way to verify what i was doing was even correct. sometimes I just invent my own format. like days since i wrote my program. make it a float for hours,minutes,seconds as a fraction of a day. ahha

thanks, let me see how I can apply it to the number I fetch

we are already dirty-rotten-bastards

rickdate is also a fun format. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RickDate

uses someone fuse? how can i debug a fuse filesysten in gdb?

PoppaVic, even GMT/UTC becuase of leap second bullshit. there is that unadjusted UTC used for astronomical calculations.. that’s not so bad. but obviously not compatible with anyone except for cosmologists.

the system doesn’t matter. Folks need to adopt something that can deal with fore/aft and time, holidays, moons, etc. Until we get somewhing, its all arbitrary crap.

richardw, gdb can attach to processes. see -p

Swatch Internet Time!

PoppaVic, even if you invent a common system, like the metric system, for time. there will always be nations that refuse to adopt a common standard.

to get it right, i should provide it a month on get_month, is that “buf”?

The very fact people allowed Religion to decree was a bigger mistake than governments.

they’d rather have people miss deadlines because they can’t decide if 10/12/07 is october, december or possibly july

Auris-: i know this option. the fuse filesystem hangs imediatly when i attach gdb

abonilla, yea. i just called it buf.

yep, because you can always blame someone else

thats why i’m asking…

richardw, of course. gdb stops stuff until you continue.

PoppaVic, you can until you’re the guy at the end of the blame list.

gdb is not a “save the world” tool, I wish folks would learn this.

gdb is better than printf debugging when it works, it’s worse than printf debugging when it doesn’t work.

I bet gdb would have prevented 9/11.

if I already have $month I can remove that get_month, I plan to get “Aug” with awk

abonilla, i don’t know what $month is.

I’d rather fprintf(stderr all over than trust gdb in the wrong place.

abonilla, sure you can use awk. you can do the entire program in awk and not even need to be in ##c

Auris-: ohhh. my fault. now it works.

PoppaVic, tracing adds too much over head. and gdb inserts fake bugs. damned if you do, damned if you don’t

yer seriously gefuckt.. I mean this kindly.

excuse me?

would this work ? if ( num =2 || num 5 ){do some stuff}

dude, if folks think something /else/ is going to save them from reading or testing, they are the ones at fault. This was true from the day writing was invented.

what about the =?

google it

i find gdb is useful. until i have to spend 2 days proving to another developer that a “bug” he found in my code is not a bug and was caused by gdb’s own influcenses into the app

heh good ol google anyways thanks for the info

what’s that law or theroem about measuring something changes it? heisenburg’s uncertainty principle i think?

ot, sure - because he could not read

bigjohnto, better not listen to abonilla.

PoppaVic, or perhaps I cannot write?

ot, I can’t and won’t say that - but, I do know that folks refuse to read and think and test. This has been true since the day I joined ##C ..it was true before

work then?

bigjohnto, no.

anyways don’t trust your tools too much. if they say something is wrong it’s worth double checking, but debuggers are hairy bits of software. they can’t always be right.

heh just pulling my leg are you

bigjohnto, = will

PoppaVic, the lack of thinking is the biggest issue I have with some people

oh ok

think of how it’s said “greater than or equal to”

tools are tools, they are there to do a job. Placing yer dick between a hammer, nailgun or sledge, and a nail is NOT sensible.

so let me rewrite this, if( num = 2 || num 5 ){ do some stuff} …. would this do the stuff in the brackets as long as the number is greater than 2 and less than 5 correct? scott_w, and to think english is my first language

PoppaVic, and sometimes if you don’t pay attention you’ll smash your thumb

OrangeTid do you like people who mistake blood droplets for gold droplets?

greater than or equal to 2 or less than 5

sure

italy, i’m not sure what that means.

the best country to live, nice music and food

basically, that’s every number

and when you do smash your thumb it’s not really a design flaw of the hammer. so i guess the same could be said about gdb, to a degree.

scrott_w, lol, yes thats what i mean

Everyone I know can have an “accident”, most folks I respect have “oh, d’oh/shit” accidents - the rest die and we don’t miss them.

ok scott_w, should it be greater than or equal to 2 and less than 5 instead of or less than 5?

it’ll also execute if it’s less then 2 btw

fungo, i think chicago has nice music and food….

OrangeTid http://rafb.net/p/8RCPEJ17.html

scott_w, yea thats right

if (num = 2 && num 5) {/*do stuff */}

italo disco/dance are the best eletronic rythmns

chitown is like detroit.. Great idea, big mistake.

italy, i didn’t know anyone was painting blood as gold.

OrangeTid oops http://rafb.net/p/5VwCee73.html

the big crucified jesus at the catholic churches i’ve seen have like red blood all over. pretty gory.

sounds biblical

scott_w, thanks a mil

just an interview from my favorite musician

well, they drink the blood and eat the flesh, too

italy, oh i see. hrm. sounds like a neat painting

http://www.halana.com/haino.html OrangeTid yeah i would like to see it

Far be it from me to deny folks rituals, but it’s grotesque.

it’s well known that art is probably more accurate than biblical text

catholic means universal church … despite the multiple schisms.

hmm I’d disagree unless yer speaking of roolt/derivation

italy, wouldn’t the art be an interpretation of the text?

not in the incident of christ

Please note that there is a *huge* difference between the catholic church and the Catholic church.

ahhh, subjectives

religion is a bunch of nonsense anyway

not to me, since all organized-religion is much the same.

It doesn’t matter.

it does to me.

Griswold__, eastern orthodox or roman catholic?

There are plenty of people who are catholic’s but not Catholics

ah i uninstall iTunes and the updater is still running it wants me to reinstall iTunes

OrngeTide, Roman Catholic, I think you mean

otoh… I don’t give a shit about gods and souls shrug

catholic is just an adjective.

Griswold__, eastern orthodox consider themselves to be the real Catholics.

Yes, you are correct.

if so, fine - define it for folks, otherwise: they go to contexts and they are screwed

But if you look at the protestant, they claim to be catholic, but not Catholic.

OrngeTide are you a fan of merzbow?

.. there are lots of words that are both usual as an adjective and noun. and some cases have different meaning. big deal italy, no. what is a merzbow?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pGzrL8J0t-c

Griswold__, well everyone claims to be catholic

PoppaVic, By the way, you state you dislike organized religion.

well, it does matter. But only when folks are trying to communicate - rather than preach.

it’s very traditional american to distrust organized religion.

OrangeTid, Not true. Perhaps Christians, yes, but not all people.

Griswold__, well I was exaggerating.

Griswold__, well everyone claims to be catholic

when i say “everyone” don’t take it literally.

catholic is not my religion of choice

because i’m not including people who are dead, for example.

PoppaVic, Do you care about disorganized religion, or do you dislike all religion, period?

scott_w, Catholics are given a choice ?

OrngeTide http://www.esoterra.org/merzbow.htm

my ex used to go to a catholic school… yet she wasn’t catholic

I would include the dead saints in the Catholic school..

she was a walking sack of potatoes

italy, cool thanks. i’ll read it when i get home.

think of me as the perfect agnostic: I don’t know if God exists or matters, I’m willing to respect and believe all sorts of folks. And, none of it matters until I am dead and meet his ass. shrug

or don’t

OrngeTide well i am assuming you enjoy culture and such

when i die and find out god is real and i’m off to hell

PoppaVic, You hate the religions themselves? Or just when people preach to you?

i’ll just say “fuck”

scott_w, a lot of roman catholics go through the motions and don’t really have any faith. they just have the social obligation to show up on easter, etc.

that applies to all religion

italy, i don’t accept most definitions of culture.

or any practice ever

icmp_, most mormons i’ve met are pretty serious.

she didn’t even have that, she just went cause all her friends went stupid thing is, she lives 1 minute walk away from another school

trying to classify how serious an entire religion is, is fruitless

Any culture, whether religious, or otherwise, will have devout followers, and people who do it as a hobby.

scott_w, yea i thing that falls under “social obligation” .. if she doesn’t show up her friends (and possibly family) would give her shit for it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pTWVls5IazI&mode=related&search= wow this is creativ

hell, the school she goes to is a 15 minute walk, and she gets a fucking taxi…

scott_w, oh catholic school?

i guess microphones are instruments too

her parents aren’t catholic either…

oh well she’s just weird then

you don’t know what created any ‘god’; stfu. speculation.

if i meet god, i’ll show him the back of my hand for making my life poor

well not that weird. there are a lot of non-baptised people who go to Catholic service. because of the people there, or the churches are pretty, or they like the choir or whateve.

or the choir boys… . hey, there are people like that

think of me as the perfect agnostic: I don’t know if God exists or matters, I’m willing to respect and believe all sorts of folks. And, none of it matters until I am dead and meet his ass. shrug

think of me as the perfect agnostic: I don’t know if God exists or matters, I’m willing to respect and believe all sorts of folks. And, none of it matters until I am dead and meet his ass. shrug

haha

i am so tempted right now…

it is like the telephone game, only it does not degenerate over time! the beauty of copy and paste

PoppaVic, So you just hate it when people preach to you, I would assume?

folks get too worried about GOD(S)

temptation is the root of all evil, don’t wear white after labor day, etc.

assuming he hates organized religion, what would you say Griswold__ ?

i can’t decide if i’m an agnostic or atheist. because when someone tells me they literally saw the light of god shining around someone during a sermon, or that they saw Mary. I cannot but help but roll my eyes.

icmp_, I am trying to see it he hates religion in general, or just organized religion. If just organized religion, I want to know why that and not religion in general.

it is possible to be atheistic to specific gods, yet agnostic to a general god that is probably where i would place myself

atheism is comple

i was so tempted to do a “chinese whispers” and completely change the message

I am perfectly willing to allow folks to believe whatever they like, as long as they ain’t hurting me or hurting kids in “my universe” - and I do mean ‘hurt”.

gcc -o truth reality.c broken; help :p

A lot of people who say, “organized religion is evil!” seem to use the phrase as a buzzword.

whats_in_a_name, i think that would make you like a deist. they generally believe there is one unknownable “divine author”.

i did not say i believed in a divine being

as a rule, “organized religion” is far worse than a personal believe.

i said i was agnostic to one

gcc -o truth reality.c gives linker errors

but atheistic to eg jesus christ being god

organized religion isn’t flexible generally

belief

and that there are no such thing as miracles or supernatural events. kind of hard for a real deist to accept the christian bible.

especially this fundamentalist shit i see

‘Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.’ Back to c.

PoppaVic, So it is when someone stands on the sidewalk and tries to “convert” someone you know? Or when they tell you that, “you are damned to hell!!?” Or when they go start wars? These kinds of things?

PoppaVic, i’m fine with organization religion if the limit to what they organize are charity events and softball tournaments.

italy, So it is the inflexibility of the religion that you dislike? A sort of dogma?

many relgions do not allow “innovation” in religion.

kill yer kin, tabs hurt.. There is no issue with “I believe this is a miracle” - Just, don’t expect me to buy it.

does anyone have god.h?

Griswold__ i don’t think people should have to make peace in the universe ubiquitously

OrngeTide, So you want religions to be able to adapt to the times? To make use of technology to help out others and the like?

PoppaVic, i think we can universally agree that negative actions, no matter what group does it. is a Bad Thing.

oh, “organized religion” hates “innovation”

wow this channel is full of drool

#ifdef CHRISTIAN

:p

sp00n i think you mean gcc -c truth.c

#else

gcc -o truth reality.c

#define life sin

is drool good or bad?

doesent it expect an object file with the -o switch?

as I said, it doesn’t bother me as far as respect: folks are all Soylent-Green to me

OrangeTid are you at work?

no

i think he meant this room is transparent.

-o means output

PoppaVic, i need people to feed the worms and other organisms. sp00n, perhaps he means this channel is slick?

I need them to replace my beef. chicken and crackers!

i’m off to bed night dudes

So is the main point that you guys feel that “organized religion” spreads lies? And maybe also tries to brainwash people?

Griswold__, governments and corporations do that too

brainwash, yes

OrngeTide, Yes, that is correct.

Griswold__, are you taking a survey for the Mormon headqaurters or something?

i think everyone gets lied too and brainwashed. the point is to be flexible about it

italy, So you are equally against all organizational brainwashing?

well i am not against capitalism

icmp_, No. I am just wondering why people hate organized religion so much

i like some of the christian sects that resist government intervention into people’s lives. i think that’s cool.

I don’t care about yer eating yer own shit, I just don’t expect to suffer the same tablefare.

OrngeTide do you have aids

Griswold__, I will debunk this for you.

icmp_, I am still trying to get a feel for what people mean by organized religion and why it is so evil.

italy, i used to.

damn.

Griswold__, I will debunk you.”

all religions are lies, unless folks believe it. — How does people believing something have anything at all to do with whether it is true?

Folks are all allowed to believe whatever they want: as long as they don’t harm their neighbors or abuse their kids in the outer-context. That’s it.

PoppaVic, Does passing said beliefs onto their kids (in a non-forcing way) count as harming them?

Griswold__, alot of religious people are twits, and alot of non-religios people are twits. A twit-war, if you will. If you are still amazed that two groups can hold conflicting beliefs, seek help. and seek it in #mormon

PoppaVic, sure. that seems obvious. they are even allowed to run around trying to covert people (as long it is without force). you know knock on a door and tell people how the giant moon gopher will save you.

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