well when cms we read fairy-stories to kids they are false - they are -kids- Now I have to wonder where the parents

30 Oct

By: Greg

I am not at all amazed that people can disagree.

i got a mormon bible for free

I am just wondering exactly why people have a specific belief.

I respect folks rights to believe as they want, for THEMSELVES.

they came to my door and offered it

PoppaVic, But they can’t teach it to others if they can’t prove it to be true?

seems sensible

Griswold__, i’m amazed how many people think that we can’t disagree. that everyone has to subscribe to the same political/religious/philosophical ideas

yer welcome to express it to other adults, w/o violence. Leave the kids alone.

I don’t believe people should be able to solicit others on property that they do not own (religious or otherwise).

I’d tend to agree

Griswold__ faith works mostly by controlling how folks communicate information

italy, i have a bunch of free bibles. all sorts of versions

i give mormons cookies me too OrngeTide

OrngeTide, I believe we can disagree. I have no problem with people disagreeing. I just want to understand as many people as I can, whether or not I agree with their view or not.

i enjoy the illustrations

It’s like C++ or “asm” or #LISP folks decrying C in ##C - it’s really strange.

Griswold__, i don’t always take the time to understand other people. you need to give me a reason to bother first. someone said C++, quit STONE HIM

PoppaVic, Ok, so once someone turns 18 I can talk to people about the flying spaghetti monster? (Or whatever religion)

s/quit/quick

yer scareing me, here in ##C, and saying this shit

OrngeTide, I have time to understand others right now because I am not doing much italy, How do you define faith?

Griswold__, i should be doing something more constructive

OrngeTide, Feel free to leave the conversation. Just let me know so I don’t address questions at you.

i have faith that the scientific method can yeild iteratively closer approximations of the truth.

nah icmp_ that’s a sheep bell. lahahahal

OrngeTide, I agree.

Griswold__, i probably won’t leave. i’m just kind of stuck on a problem at work and nobody here actually documents things. it’s just a bloody config file i can’t get right.

Don’t stop here, we are so close to an excursion into “What is truth”.

Of course, I define truth a little different than most, so I would say “reality” instead of “truth,” but I agree with the general point.

Don’t let your minds rest, no doubt heads are spinning.

OrngeTide, Sorry to hear that. Hope your day improves.

once the child is out on his own, he ain’t a “child” - and I can’t fault folks that believe the moon is cheese. UNLESS we are speaking of an “assault” with methods from brainwashing.. Folks are folks and they are allowed to believe what they want, I don’t care unless they infringe on my rights/space.

Griswold__, ehhe. some genius at vmware though printing error code “-18″ would help me figure out why my config file wasn’t accepted.

OrngeTide, Heh, nice

oh my coworker came in. bbl. i’m going to harass him about it.

wow, believe other than commo? ;-

Any idea why buf = (unsigned char *)malloc((PROTO_H * 2) + strlen(list) + ((PROTO_H + SIZE_H) * args)); would return out of bounds?

PoppaVic, Sounds reasonable. Now how do we decide what information to give a child? Only that which is shown to be probably true? (Something 90%+ likely or at least has 90%+ accurate results/predictions?)

yes, expand on it. We lack ESP

k let me past the function paste^

cmon candide.

well, parents teach their kids; or the state steps in: now, WHAT I will debate with glee: since I know many people that are lying shitpiles.

Ok, so if the parent wants to teach the “flying spaghetti monster,” they are free to do so?

how can you halt them, before they hit grade-K?

you can read their minds. with esp.

If we could stop the parent from teaching something obviously false, should we? (The government)

“2 + 2 = 5.” “Jail. go, now.”

the entire point to breeding is replacing self with a scion, hopefully better. Iv’e met many strange folks, and suffered more ugly poilitcal shit.

sp00n, But, but, try really large values of 2 and you will see, it is true! PoppaVic, Ok, but that doesn’t quite answer my question.

Griswold__, children learn plenty of religion in school at young ages. You two are just making the assumption Captain Hook was any less of a man than Jesus.

icmp_, But I suspect I have a different view than most.

I can’t outright say jews, catholics, prot., presb., etc are wrong. i’d not want to.. I don’t even trust governments to do better.

people tell their children about Santa Claus and the easter bunny and whatnot, they seem to recover from that when they grow old enough to think for themselves

I think it is ok to teach something false. (For the parents, as in, we should not stop them)

You suspect right, you subjective creature. But don’t assume it matters.

What we *should* do, is teach kids how to think logically So that they can then determine what is true and what is false on their own

i am not able to create a library (http://paste.portugal-a-programar.org/pastebin.php?show=74), thanks

The world is full of false information. Masking them from such information is pointless, because it is impossible to do.

Griswold__, with that mindset, why teach them to think logically? that is a contradiction

Instead, equipping them in a way that will allow them to figure out what makes sense themselves, is far more useful. icmp_, No, it is not.

well, when we read fairy-stories to kids, they are “false” - they are /kids/. Now, I have to wonder where the parents (if alive) drop out; society comes in; and the world matters?

allow me to point it out for you

I said the *parents* can teach whatever they want. The *state* should teach them to think logically.

oddly, I agree

It is no more a contradiction than saying males and females have some different parts. Two different entities can have different rules.

is it possible to assign an array to what lives somewhere pointed to by a pointer?

no, THAT is wrong

PoppaVic, ?

you assuming that the “logical thinking” you’re instilling in these children is correct. When you could be corrupting them just as much as some flying noodle.

http://sharkbait.computerworld.com/?q=node/1633&source=NLT_PM&nlid=8

not only that, trying to teach someone to think “correctly” is a paradox

govenrments all have as much an agenda as Organized Religion.. and EDUCATION

If the parents reject their child and remove themselves from being parents, the state is free to come in and take that role.

is it possible to assign an array to what lives somewhere pointed to by a pointer? Anyone?

PoppaVic, Yes, but I would assert we need a small government.

this is not a simple issue, really

Griswold__, christians feed on orphan tears.

Which would then minimize the “agenda” part.

Gah

hello

icmp_, Who doesn’t?

damn c is dirty

you do speak italian?

Anyone want to talk aout programming?

but in a hot way

Most groups of people feed on needy people. How else would they recruit them?

christians are no worse than muslims or others, and I am tired of the religious bent and finger-pointing.. I have never predicated anything I do I on “new testament”, etc

in any case, trying to patent anything as singularly independent as raising a child, is fantastic.

“groups of” - you mean folks feed on grief/pain/desperation raise yer kids to think.. to learn.. To compare to _judge_ - govenerments and religions do /not/ want that.

PoppaVic, Yep yep PoppaVic, My point exactly. Teach people to think and learn.

change the waterflow, change the atmosphere.

And then if something false falls in their face, it is no big deal.

religion has nothing to do with parenting. If you don’t teach your children the things mentioned above. It’s bad parenting.

if Pa’ ever had an issue later, that was HIS problem - not mine.. I still read and listen and think and test. alas, it matters religion is - at best - an /exposure/ - no prob.. Expose them. ..just don’t deny they think/listen/read: THAT is downright evil there are a few folks herein lder than me, that’s fine - I listen. There are a few with better degrees: ok again. As a rule, I don’t have to agree with these folks 24/7: they already understand folks can disagree. /that/ is a Good-Thing ™ lder/older

PoppaVic, Same I don

I never stop folks from thinking and quote religion. Ever. I don’t even like telling folks to respect standards”

I don’t hesitate to ask if my prof.s did something correct. Often times I catch their errors.

I refuse to respect it though, as a whole, or as a belief :p bI refuse to respect it though, as a whole, or as a belief :p/b

In the majority, I had good teachers and profs.. maybe it was luck, but I won’t fight it. ‘it’?

I have had good math teachers and profs

religion.

Moderate science, with some really good science teachers. Had some English teachers all over the board.

math is just not my strong-point, although folks should respect the strictures to such “riddles”

I think programming has helped my English. Made me critically aware of grammar.

It made me unable to break literal strings.

Ironically, I believe my stuttering has also helped me speak better.

or atleast funnier.

I have found all sorts of ways around my stuttering so people hardly notice anymore.

ahh.. Well, I disagree. Folks can be muslim, mormon, catholic and whatnot and /respect/ others. And, respect is more than 50% of /communicate/

I will honestly swap out words or phrases for alternative forms multiple times in a sentence. And no one notices.

Well, sure. I made no move as far as respecting others. I respect the people, not their beliefs. there is a strong distinction.

were this not true, I’d press very hard to deny all and make them dead.

Anyhow, that allows me to have a larger vocabulary and be more eloquent in my speech. Zotnix, I try to respect all people, too. However, if I think they believe something false, and they start the conversation, I will usually hold nothing back.

As Hitchens said, “They can have their toys. They can play with their toys. They can play with their toys privately. But under no circumstances tell me I have to play with your toys. Or that my children must play with your toys. Just keep you toys to yourself.”

nope.. You must respect THEIR belief, but /demand/ they not infringe more than the laws/w/o/religion infringe. yep. Unless they decide THEIR toys are /your/ toys.

few people, save dictators, will force you to respect their beliefs. Doing so would mean they had something better than faith, or ignorance.

beware people.

I don’t have to respect their belief. I wouldn’t respect someone who claims to be Napoleon and I must bow to him anymore than someoen who claims there is a Napoleon in the sky watching me

beware, yer treading on thin ice, and I am sincere

Respect is earned. Tis all I’m saying. Hey, I was wondering. I’m writing this program for a purely “learning” standpoint. It’s GTK. but really not too important. The important part is I want to college 25 sets of X and Y data. collect* And use this data to seed randomness.

I have no issue - ever - with “earned respect”, but folks need to get from there to here. “tolerance” of silliness is fine, let them die ugly if they don’t listen: we ain’t here and paid to “save” them.

Heh. Really it is in my opinion that such respect is a slippery slope to intolerance.

I respect everyone, as a Rule.

As is evident especially in the US. When scientific, learned opinion is overshadowed by someone who claims religious reasons.

courtesy and respect are different.

I start everyone as a ZERO on a numberline, and let them run along… I no more suggest folks /ignore others than I get peeved. (which is a wide-open barn

Nothing wrong with letting religious people say what they believe in public (not on private property, unless they own it) Of course, putting said religion in a (public) classroom is wrong.

not really, until you narrow the spectrum

If it has no scientific background, that is.

I have no problem with speaking. My problem is putting weight on it that is actually effective against people trained, learned, and can certainly lay to the ethical issues, purely in a respectable way.

It is at least theoretically possible that something could be both scientific and religious in nature, and if so, that could be allowed in the classroom with the science backing it.

Well, there is no known case to speak of.

school is for facts you can learn on yer own, given the tools; religion is for belief. That’s fine, don’t stir my goddamned stew

Hence the theoretically part.

This rant has taken a turn for the stoned. I’m out guys, have a good one.

I don’t believe they are apart. I think they clash.

Also, in a science history sort of class, there is nothing wrong with going over the religions of scientists if those religions impacted that persons life a lot. Like Newton, for example.

Not relavant to his work, though. And really that can be left to History, rather than science.

I disagree, and there is at least 100 years of experiental that agrees.

Zotnix, I disagree I bet if you asked Newton if his religion was relevant, he would say, “YES!! Of course it is!”

I don’t see how knowing who Newton prayed to impacts how his law of gravitation applies to the world :p

wtf is the term for “provable yerself”?

Zotnix, And, if you didn’t notice, I said a “science history” course.

I’ve never heard of that, to be honest.

newton had other issues, they felt he was a heretic

’science history’ being taught. But I would agree it would be applicable to such a course.

Zotnix, His religion played a major part in how he viewed the world. He thought he was rather insignificant. (Which can be deduced from his religion)

we’re still talking about bullshit?

newton was into alchemy and SHOW-ME proofs

PoppaVic, Yes, but the church doesn’t hold a monopoly on religion.

but no impact on the data he presented :p

Zotnix, He presented gravity and told people he didn’t know how it worked, but the math seemed to advocate it.

folks need to get their heads out of their ass ans at least watch PBS/nova

People proceeded to laugh at his idea of gravity. Zotnix, There is a difference between discovery and presentation.

oh, my.. “the church” covers Sooooooo much

I believe the former to be more important, and that is where religion would come in.

“in terms of accepted terms”

PoppaVic, You are right. And people thought he was a heretic. That doesn’t change that he had a religion. He was a very devout follower of said religion, too. He just didn’t agree with the central church at the time.

certain;y, even an Athiest has a “religion” - even in negative ways.

completely false. And if that is the case, it is certainly the weakest religion ever :p

PoppaVic, Newton knew 5 languages specifically so he could use them to read the bible.

Semantical games, really.

English, French, Latin, Hebrew, and one more that I forgot off hand. He would compare the various bibles to try to gain the best interpretation.

This is why I prefer “agnostic”. I don’t care if you disagree. although I might try to answer you; I Don’t care if you agree, although we might chat. Shit is shit. Die well

hi if i have installed sphinx2,how can i access its library functions in my code?

Newton spent more time studying religion than he did studying math and science combined. To say his religion was insignificant is quite ignorant.

but in learning the formulas, very irrelevant.

No, not at all.

if yer into semantics and weak/strong and games: well, yer in the wrong channel: because C is 100% about agreements.

I can tell you personally, I excel in Mathematics far more when I have more faith in my religion.

That’s nice. So?

When my faith lapses, so goes my math ability.

That doesn’t make any sense to me, at all.

Zotnix, It doesn’t need to. I have the data. I have mentally been tracking faith + math ability.

so WHAT?

i started with a trivial project in anjuta IDE and now i have configure and Makefiles so how can i change those to include the header files of sphinx so that i can call its APIs

My math ability is falls to poor when my faith is poor.

belief can be a nice thing

PoppaVic, Religion has an impact on *me* when I do math.

as long as it stays belief and not fanatic ‘knowledge’

How it has that impact, I have no idea.

stop dicking with an IDE and write a makefile?

Perhaps it is a placebo effect, I don’t know.

very likely.

But it most certainly does have one.

think you need some confidence on your own?

I don’t think I am any better than anyone else.

And I imagine periods where you are “slipping in faith” you are troubled.

But yet somehow I can do stuff most other people can’t with regards to mathematics.

religion is just another interface. Blind-beliefs in such are harmful.

Stress impacts perfomance too :p

The only reasonable explanation is that I am not doing it, but He who resides in me is doing it.

ok, THAT worries me

PoppaVic, I don’t believe blindly what the church spouts at me. There are things I disagree with the church about. I am simply not better than anyone else. Why should I be?

I don’t tolerate what my head whispers, either.

it is a comfortable thought for a lot of people to believe that there’s someone watching out for you and that death holds no fears

PoppaVic, I never said anything about what my head whispers.

I’m christian myself actually

No one is “better” - yer all just goddamned interfaces I imagine work. From there, all sortsa’ shit become interesting

I pray for help, and I seem to get help in understanding.

though I have a healthy sceptisism to this whole ‘walking on water’ and ‘miracle’ things

I don’t pray for such help, I don’t get that help and I am at the level anyone else is at.

Everyone makes a decision. Code or life language as well.

programming, that is.

I am doing math that confuses the shit out of PhDs. I am 19. There is *no* reason why that should happen.

program should have those configure makefile and all no?how can i change tat to include an installed library say sphinx?

Savant?

Of course, they could show me stuff that would confuse me.

It *DOES* happen :p

Zotnix, perhaps.

I don;t care HOW it works, just that it works.

Yes, I know, it does happen.

but the ‘why’ is more interesting to you, Griswold__?

But I shouldn’t be able to do it. Yet somehow I am able to do it *when I pray*

how is that?

Yes, the “why” is the whole point.

look, dude: don’t ask me - I despise autoshit.autotools

lack of confidence maybe?

The “how” is fun, too, but I like “why” so much more. Perhaps. My confidence does go up with faith.

my point exactly

Also, spending many many months on a particular problem might be helpful. (Most people don’t do that, which would give me an advantage.)

however it is half past midnight in 5 minutes and I shall be going to bed

“prayer” (near as I can tell) is almost identical to “think about the issue and ask someone else what they think”_

PoppaVic, Sure it is.

well, there yah go. Yove an API that works, now codify it.

I am part way between Deist and Theist. I am technically Theist, but practically Deist. I believe God created something so great that it can take care of itself.

OK, after seeing the last Nova on PBS - I have issues with “Deist”

And, as such, why would he bother interfering very much? PoppaVic, There a link to it somewhere? Perhaps on youtube?

hello

I always welcome alternative views to look at and think about.

what does subscripted value is neither array nor pointer mean?

I never met the dude, and he doesn’t seem to care. OTOH, I’d not put it past Them to code a stupid ‘bot.

Anyhow, when I go look at the bible, I don’t ever see Jesus going to people and trying to force them to follow him. And so when people try to force others, it bothers me.

well, the kicker was.. “deist” ends up meaning simply Heretic to catholics and protestents.

People can see the big building that looks like a church and decide whether it is for them on their own. PoppaVic, And hence I am not strictly deist.

your argument should be good enough to compel someone to follow u, u dont need force at all if your right

I am strictly Theist, but practically Deist.

Yep.. I’m easy.. Folks are friends, food, or fools… I don’t have to agree with them, but they need to respect me-space

Just as I build my computer and it can (at least partly) take care of itself, I believe God can interfere when He sees fit. “Just for fun.” in a way. shaun_, Exactly.

gods are not my prob - they seem a lot like chance. People and governments seem to come really close ;-/

if you use force it just shows how wrong u actually are

If you look at Jesus, He believed He was right. And people followed Him. He didn’t need to force it on anyone.

I never met the dude, really - I ain’t that old

PoppaVic, Yep. I don’t like gov’ts.

Ramadhan come

so anyone know anything about that gcc error i pasted earlier?

By “look” I mean go read the scripture.

subscripted value is neither array nor pointer’

folks simply need to buy into and behave-as they were taught, or stay out out of my range.

What if they were taught to kill? (Needlessly)

they better be better than myself

people shouldnt give a damn what htey were taught, just do what they think is right

Ahh, exactly.

everyone cares what they were taught.

People need to do what they think is right, not what they were taught.

s’cuse me, I must have mistakenly joined #philosophy

Raiford, Yep, it is now spelled with a c

there is no perfect “right”, I wish folks would just fuckin’ learn this

PoppaVic, What they “think” is right

there is only whats right for you, and u shouldnt do anything else than that

Very different. The law should be there to protect people from doing to others what the public deems shouldn’t be done to themselves.

folks can /believe/ as they like, as long as they do no harm to others; Further, they can /code/ that way. C doesn’t care.

(Ie. most people do not believe in murder, so the law is there to force that moral/ethic on the rest of society, the minority)

if I can convince the other guy I have my opinion has more merit, then I am right ! It’s like relative addressing

And that is ok, because murdering others clearly harms them.

hello, i’m getting a undefined reference to `powf’ when compiling using gcc, i included math.h, what am i missing?

if ethics need to be forced on u then they arent very ethical

But if you want to hurt yourself, the law has no place. shaun_, Why else have laws?

I was blown away you knew “murder” and didn’t say “kill”

to protect the physical wellbeing of those whom it protects

I am sick of people saying that I shouldn’t force my ethics on them, but then they advocate that we should have laws that tell us not to murder. PoppaVic, There is a wild difference between murder and kill.

hell yes

For instance, if someone comes into my home and tries to hurt my family (well, once I get one, I am only 19 right now), and I have some weapon near by, I will use it. But that would not be murder.

the laws should only prohibit physical harm to another, anything else they try to do will, in the end, cause more harm than good

Griswold__, are you trying to witness to them or something ? Are these unsolicited, perhaps you’re just annoying them

just like ##C: we don’t /care/ if you work in or /prefer/ another language. Shit still works.

shaun_, Yep yep

everyone go read atlas shrugged by ayn rand, then u will understand how to live

Raiford, I was expanding on PoppaVic ’s statement that I know there is a difference between murder and kill/ Nothing more, nothing less.

pass

Raiford, I did not start the conversation. I joined well after the talk of religion started.

ignorance is not bliss :]

shaun_, that book is too long

Anyhow, I am going to go do some math

One can Kill -9 or exit() or abort() in self defense; folks should /not/ screw other process/people just because _you_ are clusterfucked. dtay well stay

I well.

any help? =]

what does subscripted value is neither array nor pointer mean?

Folks need to think of “society” as the OS, or the network - you scale it folks. exactly as it said

what can i do about it?

windows = society !!!!

int a; a[123[ is bad.

who cares about society? you should only be concerned with yourself i acutally made my own struct

dudem yer doze obsession doesn’t interest me. ahh, “yourself” is easy. Don’t ask anymore

then i made a pointer to a 3d array of that struct, and i’m trying to access a subscripted value by doing ‘dist[0][0][0]-var’ and i get this error

in a few days, you might learn better

so your saying that u shouldnt care about yourself

care about yourself. Die ##C is a “society”

if u dont want to care about yourself then you want death, if u dont want to live then u want to die, simple as that

u cn di now

heh

wasn’t the philosophy of Adam Smith that if you take care of yourself first, everyone eventually benifits ?

I’d wager there are at least 4 folks ready to eat you alive.

it’s always a surprise to what depths the conversations on ##c will go

benifits s/benifits/benefits

possibly, but i know its also the philosophy of ayn rand

no, it’s more amazing the headspace of the idjits that ask for help just save me.

ayn rand was one ugly woman

oh yeah butt ugly

it is hard to take anyone that ugly serious

shoulda taken better care of herself

I think Rand and Smith arrived at similar conclusions through different means.

bah

people will act in their own self interest; deal with it. the moral life is one in which you act in your own self interest; deal with it.

I;d agree that both scare me.

that only goes to show that the ones that cant deal with it act in others best interest and if you dont act in your best interest than u dont care for your own life, so you want death

being selfless is not a natural action for most people , that is for sure

Folks should CARE about their neighbors. Not that they should harm themselves to help, but to care and help as possible.

which only goes to show how wrong it acutally is help if their neighbors deserve it

Further, folks should /try/ tp teach others, Be it hammer, saw, etc: If folks want to learn you try.

help your neighbor if he has something you need ?

why else?

otoh, if those asking want solutions, well…. it’s yer energy - not mine.

yep

skills are easy to transfer, if folks are sincere

perhaps altruism has also gone the way of patriotism PoppaVic, I agree

i’d rather say if they are competent

with the way Nationalism, Religion and Neighbors, Parenting have gone? Yeah.. It’s all iffy

heh y0 PoppaVic

Nietschze (sp?) had some similar thoughts with his inversion of values:

its the source of evil of the world :/

the sefless are the strong ones, the beggars are the honorable ones.

we’re all gonna DIE! ;P

But treating other human beings with dignity and respect enhances your own humanity.

indeed

he wrote slop for folks. So what? Should I give a rats-ass about stalin or hitler as well?

hi what’s the easyest lib to use for parsing an xml file ?

that is acutally totally wrong

I’d rather respect both of them, and remember their headspace and their affects on masses of idiots.

No. I was just saying that Nietzsche and Rand expressed the same thing.

kay2, i think expat is easiest. some think libxml2 is easier.

how can a selfless person ever be strong?

I never meant you

Rand took great pride in saying that Aristotle was the only philosopher she read,

and the beggars are the most dishonerable of them all

but she should have read more.

READING ABOUT something is not testing or employing it.

That’s precisely what Nietzsche said. But take the example of Christ.

there is no Christ

He lived for others and died a martyr.

shaun_, what is your concept of personal strength ?

And he is revered as strong.

there are records of someone they blame

it’s hard to be selfless, but it can also be a cop-out imo

But hanging around waiting to get nailed to a cross isn’t my idea of strong. So the weak (the crucified Christ) is revered as the strong

which is why in my version of christianity Jesus has a machine gun.

i think that story is more about kings being a sacrifice for the people, which is from another time really

achievement

so has the the jewish, muslim and whatnot

since we have “democracy” now, or so i hear tell

The values of inverted. (Meek shall inherit the earth; a rich man can’t go to heaven) Nietzsche (and Rand) said we need to flip them back

Frankly, I am not willing to play martyr for idiots. I’d rather snuff my foo foe

me neither

isn’t democracy the ruling by our collective stupidity?

when the world worships weakness and tries to break the strong, thats when u know that everything is fucked up

the selfless is bad, the selfish is moral.

ugh

ok, I shall stop there today ;-/ I need a night.

shaun_, that’s pretty broad, achievement, that doesn’t neccessarily mean that you would have to be selfish

it used to quite common to sacrifice a champion instead of a whole army

Affordable joomla web hosting

stay well folks

PoppaVic, adios.

bye

igli, generals and kings should duel instead of having bloody wars.

how can u achieve without being selfish?

heh

igli, plus it worked in the movie RobotJox.

lol

one, two, three, four, I declare thumb-war! Or is that just an American thing?

Mother Teresa, achieved noteriety by doing selfless acts

you gotta wonder why people put up with it though or maybe not

it depends on what you consider an achievment

thumb-fight!

what did she acutally achieve?

shaun_, like I said noteriety, otherwise no one would have heard of her

Gates or Mother Teresa?

that is why I made the comment that “achievement” is a broad term

I think if you dig hard enough Ravi Zacharias has the answer.

what does noteriety achieve? nothing..

ozarka, what metric do you use to determine who has a better life ?

Your life can be measured in your relationships to other people. It’s all meaningless if you are alone. Think about the Zombie Apocalypse. Last man on Earth invents Windows. Who cares?

so the arbitration of this is almost impossible, unless you say something like, the guy that earns the most money is the highest achiever

ozarka, haha thumb-war

Last man on Earth feeds the hungry in Calcutta. He can’t. There’s no one to feed. The two are equal without another human to measure against.

90lbs. better life.

If weight is the metric, I’m doing quite well.

in some cultures , that is a valid metric

ozarka, i’m not even into quadruple digits.

so any one do any cool C lately?

You can do it. Don’t give up!

Raiford, i resist culturally defined metrics.

I use money as metric gates is better than mother teresa because he has more money

aFlag, that is the easiest to quantify for sure

igli, i wrote a radix trie the other day. adding a feature to walk the trie by incrementing the key, by an amount figured out from skipping empty branches.

and by impact on the world, Gates probably wins hands down also

if you think the other way around, you should make mother teresa rich

is it fast, OrngeTide? s/trie/tree/ btw

igli, no idea. it was faster than what my program was doing. a linked list and linear search igli, it is a trie not a tree.

hehe ok cool

but it kinda all goes back to what your own personal value analyzer says for you

igli, lemme see if i still have my picture of it… http://orangetide.com/temp/1.png igli, that was made by calling rt_set(0×2a, “Hello”); …

you know, there are better philosophical discussions in #c than in #philosophy, no question about it

actually i think i use 42 .. which is 0×2A

interesting

igli, as you add more entries it makes the tree taller. up to key_bits/radix_bits (or 16 nodes high in this case) data notes are only on the bottom of the trie. trie==reTRIEval

er ok

s/data notes/data nodes

hehe

igli, it could probably be optimized to be pretty fast. i didn’t actually performance test this code. or implement anything to compare it against. so right now it has no performance but the code was easy to write.

cool

being faster than a linked list and easy to write is worth something I suppose.

btrees look fun (in general)

yea they are neat. the putty author has a nice article on implementing “counted” btrees.

binary heap trees as well yeah?

i like red-black and aa-trees

yeah i read a bit about em

i would like to understand rainbow trees as well

igli, yea. it’s a b-tree but you can use it like an array and index the tree with a number. useful for implementing as a buffer for a text editor. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/algorithms/cbtree.html

i’m stuck in bash atm ugh

mbroeker, i totally don’t get thoses.

heh yeah looks fun

there is always Judy Array. but it’s a hybrid data structure and heavily optimized and has a viral license on it.

8 chars of length makes 64^8 variations but they reduce that somehow to 2^x…

mbroeker, a type of hash?

OrngeTide, it seems that rainbow table deal with the bitview and reduce that geniusly

mbroeker, what do you want to use rainbow tables for?

i want to compare all variations(brutforce) to prohabilistic evaluation(rainbow tables)

you’re not going to hax me?

well, i have 2 md5 hashes. cracked one, needed the other…

i tend to salt my md5 hashes. and my cgi library uses sha1+salt

I thought sha1 was cracked also

not really

it doesnt matter i have written some algos and i want them to finish the “quest”

i made the pizza like i said

cn28h_, the best technique still takes 2^63 operations to break it.

but anyway, some written code is not enough. i need to understand what theese lines are doing…

OrngeTide, oh so it’s just a theoretical attack

cn28h_, yea. they don’t recommend basing new designs on it that are meant to be secure. but sha1 is still in much better shape than md5

right

brutforce is violence. prohabilstic valueation is mathematics. the best compromise of both is a rainbow table…

a rainbow table will take longer than bruteforce on a salted password though (or you will run out of memory) cn28h_, i thought about using something else. like Tiger or Whirlpool. but i don’t really know what is better than SHA-1 (other than sha256)

salted hashes break rainbow tables

OrngeTide, yeah.. sha 256 would have been my answer ;P

hi adrakoa

cn28h_, it just wastes memory and cpu

so does windows but people still use it okay that was a cheap shot but yeah, I see your point

i like compact hashes. besides many of these. sha256, whirlpool, etc are weak on short amounts of data. but the main reason? i have a public domain sha1 passwd implementation just sitting in my toolbox my cgi library lets you expire user’s passwords force them to change it. and can support multiple password formats at a time. so you can just force everyone to a new format and hash their new passwords in the new format. easy cheesy.

how is sha256 weak on short amounts of data?

hm, is your CGI library in C?

the specs say that there are 2^56 variations for the key: why is that so: why not 8^N? sorry, the salt on DES is 2 chars wide and so, there are 2^N variations…

DES uses a fixed key length and there’s no “salt” for DES, UNIX uses DES with 2 byte salt for passwd hashing band there’s no “salt” for DES, unix uses DES with 2 byte salt for passwd hashing/b seen the video?

nope i just realized i use my shitty scripts here are they not allowed matt__ i like this album a lot there’s two indie rock bands i like

probably discouraged, but check out the video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fxvGHQHiY70

arcade fire and animal collective

you’d probably like fiery furnaces then

perhaps

well my girlfriend sits in the bar with a strange guy and i am dealing with algorithms. i need violence, i need anger, i need the attitude to protect…

DIE!

Sheesh.

OrngeTide, just curious because I reckon that’d be a rarity (Itreid in C++ once but languages that have CGI stuff built in are just too tempting for me heheh)

hi candide

Hola, pragma_

matt__, i just read that sha256 doesn’t deal well with 32-64 bits of data. matt__, although no problem if you have a secure 8 byte salt (or more) cn28h_, yea my cgi library is in c. (sorry for the delay went to get a drink)

ah, cool

link?

matt__ i find the comments quite entertaining

matt__, i can’t give you a link to a vague memory in my brain. matt__, i might only be sha-1 that has this problem. but i’m pretty sure it’s a problem common to all in the sha family (including sha-like algorithms like whirlpool) i am told there are ways to statistically determine if a sha hashed something less than 32 bits. and you can just bruteforce 2^32 to find it instead of the full 2^256

Hm, I guess my shell’s connection just went down, not the server. 8, 15 users, load average: 0.02, 0.02,

but i don’t really grok that cryptology stuff. i just parrot what i read. but i don’t really grok that cryptology stuff. i just parrot what i read. BWAK!

You mean f&3c?

Encrypted, ftw.

haha i only use /usr/games/bin/caeser

static void (*)(int) find_acc(const char *name); oh I see

Hey everyone! I have a big file size issue, on my local 32 bit machine I need to use the compiler flag -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 though on another location (a 64 bit cluster where I run the code) I get an error if I use that flag, so I need some may to include it only on my local system I’m not use what I can use for #ifdef to test for 32 bit machine

wormz, this is why some people use ./configure scripts

yeah the code isn’t that big, doesn’t seem worth it btw what do you actually use to make configure scripts?

wormz, autoconf and automake. you use autoconf to make the configure script. the script then reads Makefile.am and turns it into a Makefile to make Makefile.in you need automake or something to that effect. sean_^, so did you figure out your problem? like this http://rafb.net/p/6Uy9Yr90.html

!vampire is /say The Help Vampire: A Spotter’s Guide [http://www.slash7.com/pages] vampire

A Spotter’s Guide [http://www.slash7.com/pages]

hel vampires! help even

That factoid should become famous in this channel. !top20

hi (167) book (146) books (123) k&r (100) help (86) dontcastmalloc (74) slap (73) shoot (59) testcase (56) warnings (39) ask (38) botsnack (37) paste (35) standard (34) (32) pointers (31) say (30) source (29) rtfm (27) thanks (27) uhi (167) book (146) books (123) k&r (100) help (86) dontcastmalloc (74) slap (73) shoot (59) testcase (56) warnings (39) ask (38) botsnack (37) paste (35) standard (34) (32) pointers (31) say (30) source (29) rtfm (27) thanks (27)/u

Before its logs got wiped, that actually looked interesting. Now it’s just … like, useless.

it needs a bigger statistical sample

How do you mean?

well those numbers seem small.

“7388: Fn-F0 Hey Joe.”) but strtok does not handle quoting so what should i do?

100 cals on the same item is only about a weeks worth of data on my bot.

Yeah, the logs got wiped.

zu22, write a parser. pragma_, maybe the data will be more interesting after it sits around for a while/

This channel isn’t what it used to be.

i’m new to C, how would i write this parser? any code snippets?

Though still, how would autoconf/automake know that I need the _FILE_OFFSET_ARRAY flag defined, I still need some kind of check for system type

Sure, if the bot was in multiple channels, it’d be more interesting.

!ftp is /say Function Pointer Tutorial: http://www.newty.de/fpt/fpt.html

ftp? :p

er.. i did it wrong !fpt .. and i don’t have access oh wait i do have access. !forget ftp

how would you read in each line and what sort of standard library functions would you use? i stumbled upon strtok and it seems fine but doesn’t handle quoting (i am learning C)

zu22, you would use a look and some variables to parse the string by hand. s/look/loop wow i cannot type properly today.

I wouldn’t use a standard library function. I’d just parse it manually with a pointer or two.

so read the line char by char and use if()s to determine what to do with each char you mean?

zu22, right.

ah, this is all new to me, sorry if i sound dumb

maybe have a variable that is a flag to tell you if you’re in “quoting mode” not sure how the data is your processing is formatted, so i am being vague.

ah, in C you can do like if (c == “”") to test if a char is a quote?

nenolod, the thickness of their skulls is unrivaled. zu22, if(c==’”‘)

cool

OrngeTide, the quote comes from arguing between two freebsd people

thanks for the input guys

Theo is a world class loser”

void dumbtest(const char *str) { int i; for(i=0;str[i];i++) { if(str[i]==’”‘) { printf(”I found a quote!\n”); } } you could start with that function and turn it into a parser if you’d like.

nice, i want to get a dumbed down parser working then i can improve on it as i learn more C

glad to have helped.

you’re aware your quit message truncates the quote at “to be either of th”?

can snprintf be used to concatenate formatted output without over writing the buffer?

what do you mean?

to make it into something you could keep some variables that index the string at various points or keep some destination strings ready for copying data into. lots of choices. i usually go with the idiom of int foo_start, foo_end; and when i find the start of something i set foo_start=i, and when the find the end i set foo_end=i; then when i’m done i can do something with it. like printf(”foo:%.*s\n”, foo_end-foo_start, str[foo_start]); /* print a substring echos_, yes. you can just snprintf(buf+offset, len-offset, …)

pragma_, it doesn’t on other ircds

snprintf(buf, sizeof(buf), “%s, %d”, buf, myint);

echos_, offset would be the value returned by the previous snprintf, or you can do offset=strcat(buf); if you don’t already have the offset handy.

huh? strcat() takes two arguments.

pragma_, i mean strlen offset=strlen(buf);

i like that approach

basically if offset is the end of the string, you can just buf+offset to stick concat a string using snprint, strcpy, memcpy, whatever. careful because snprintf can return a value larger than length.

thank you

my buddy said i could store each token as a struct member but i really haven’t learned structs and right now i have fixed strength length (#define slength 100), so once i learn dynamic memory allocation hopefully i can make it a more flexible parser, i’m also thinking of how to deal with weird characters like i noticed in the logs sometimes there are ansi control characters etc.. but i think i have enough for a good beginner parser

offset=0; for(i=0;inr_items && offsetlen;i++) { offset+=snprintf(buf+offset, len-offset, “item:%s,”, item[i])); } .. that might be how I’d use it.

s/strength/string

zu22, yea. structs to hold tokens are fine. very dynamic. but you will have to either have a fixed number of tokens or learn how to do a linked list and dynamic allocation my parsing is usually simple like i just want to pull a half dozen fields out of a string, so i just make variables for them all. and if some of the fields are the same sort of thing. i just use one set of variables for all of them and a loop. i am lazy and take a lot of short cuts on parsers. like i will load the entire line or sometimes the entire file into RAM before i parse it. to avoid having to make a reentrant state machine sort of parser. so if you do something evil like give me a 500MB file that is just one line long. my program will be boned.

ah yeah, hopefully i will get to that stage of understanding before too long heh 500MB file whoa my log files are like 2MB max i noticed that strtok is not reentrant

typing a character on the keyboard places that corresponding character into stdin right? so, if i do a fflush(stdin); and then try to read from stdin should result in no data being read right? i ask because i am seeing the opposite of this

also notice that strtok modifies your string.

i make no keystrokes even after fflush()’ing

!faq fflush stdin

12. Stdio, 12.26 Will fflush(stdin) flush unread characters from the standard input stream? : http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/q12.26.html

no, fflush will flush the buffer so you *get* everything that was typed

is it possible to share stuff like open tcp connections between the parent/child process after they fork()’ed? or do i have to use threads for that?

no, fflush will not do a fucking thing on stdin.

oh, interesting so stdin is not buffered?

Yes it is. Read the link.

i guess that wouldn’t make sense

whats_in_a_name, your key input is line buffered. (read the link, it’s good)

Dangit, the link is broken.

edman007, it’s not easy to do. there is a way to transfer file descriptors using a unix domain socket.

that link is stale

Oh well, the first link works.

http://c-faq.com/stdio/stdinflush.html

yeah, but the first link in that list is the right one.

edman007, it’s a bizarre aspect of SysV IPC and considered a black art. and Windows totall doesn’t have a way to emulator it, afaik. emulate it even

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